Episode 30
Cheryl Doig - Walking with the Futures Aunty
This week, host Trisha interviews Cheryl Doig, a futures and foresight practitioner with a deep background in education. They discuss the importance of cultural intelligence (CQ) and CQ Strategy for the future. Cheryl shares her journey to becoming known as a 'Futures Aunty' and emphasizes the significance of understanding different perspectives and histories as we think about both the future and the past. The conversation delves into the impact of random and cataclysmic events on communities, particularly referencing the Christchurch earthquakes and the terrorist attack. They also discuss the shifts in New Zealand in cultural understanding between Māori and Pākehā populations. Cheryl describes her work and the importance of anticipation and building resilient mindsets for future preparedness. She also discusses her involvement in projects related to intergenerational fairness and how various generations can shape future policies. The episode concludes with reflections on Cheryl's accomplishments and the importance of supporting others in their journey towards effective futures thinking. To learn more - Cheryl referenced Roman Kryznaric and the Three Horizons tool which she speaks more about in this interview. Sign up for Cheryl's newsletter on her website and explore other resources she recommends Connect with Cheryl on LinkedIn to continue the conversation
Transcript
I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.
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[00:01:27] Trisha: In this podcast, we're focusing more on the metacognitive aspect, thinking about our thinking. It's called CQ Strategy. Today's guest is an old friend and colleague, and I've known Cheryl for longer than I thought, for probably almost 20 years. When we first met at a CQ facilitator training session, Cheryl has a deep background in education.
[:[00:02:12] Trisha: It's a title I love and I'd love to hear more about it. What does it mean and how did you get it, Cheryl?
[:[00:02:47] Cheryl: My future's aunty title came, a few years ago when I was training some people in futures methodologies and at the end of this community of practice, a group that had been working with me for three or four months, I had this beautiful email from one of my Māori colleagues who said, thank you for all your work, I just look at you as my futures aunty.
[:[00:03:51] Trisha: it's lovely. I love it. Today, I'm curious to learn more about the work you're currently doing and the impact it's having on people in the organisations that you're serving. I think the future is something that can be scary, and yet I know that isn't the way that you focus on it. I want to consider how you help people shift in their thinking to see different perspectives.
[:[00:04:21] Cheryl: The worldview of Māori, so I live in a country, which has been colonised by Pākehā, so I'm a Pākehā, a New Zealander, come from New Zealand, European, English, Scottish stock, sometimes known as Tau Iwi or Tangata Tiriti, so I am a Treaty Partner, and I grew up in the city of Christchurch.
[:[00:05:01] Cheryl: And, and so, uh, I, I have come to really, Understand, love and appreciate the Māori culture as I have become more conversant with what it's about. I have more friends who are in the Māori space, but excitingly, post Christchurch earthquakes, when things were rebuilt, now I go into the city, which is Ōtautahi.
[:[00:05:45] Trisha: That's lovely. And, makes me feel very, hopeful that we can all be on that journey and learn more. I'm curious too, can you tell me about a time when you experienced a shift, you know, when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?
[:[00:06:27] Cheryl: And so I started digging into the idea of histories and the, um, that, that, that shift when I started finding out what it had been like for the lived experience of some people, especially in the Māori space, but in other cultures, who had been in the same spaces as my ancestors, but had a completely different, not just worldview, but experience, and the pains that went with it, and so, that, that shift gave me a new perspective, and, and helped me to, uh, explore, their cultures, their histories, find out more, and in doing that, the interesting thing for me is it's helped me understand my culture.
[:[00:07:32] Trisha: And, and then, so that was a moment of shift because I realized, oh, yes, they were New Zealand wars. There were two sides fighting, you know, um, and, and it was that complete sense of how we frame our perception of history with words and with titles. And when I looked into it, there was just this complete pattern of, wars that have fought in the name of not the aggressor, but in the name of the people who they're being fought against.
[:[00:08:22] Cheryl: I think that's, that's a really good example of how our education systems, our societies, help shape our thinking, and, uh, therefore our actions, and I, I think about that now in terms of the new celebration we have called Matariki, which is the Māori New Year, and that is the most profound, amazing celebration, uh, and I remember my mother saying to me a few years ago, so when did they invent that?
[:[00:09:14] Cheryl: So I think that whole idea is like, yes, all the work that we do in this space of, of knowing who we're, and the, the cultures that we become are, um, depending on what stars we see.
[:[00:09:46] Trisha: And then I came in and I went to the meeting and I told my American colleagues, global colleagues, they're not just from America, about. You know, that it was Matariki and that, you know, that they should go and look for the constellation the next morning. And then it was only later in the day, I thought, Trisha, they're on, they've got a different hemisphere.
[:[00:10:46] Trisha: So over the years, the city has been hit by many challenges. There were two earthquakes, 2011, 2012, wasn't it? And the rebuilding that had to happen from that was just massive that you spoke about before. And then there was the terrorist attack in 2019, against the mosques, and just that hit the city so hard.
[:[00:11:14] Cheryl: Interesting thing for me about disasters, uh, or events of catalytic, outcomes is the way in which communities come together and they come together and act as a family and share ideas, share resources, and they did that in the earthquake, shared power, shared food, and in the mosque, the huge gatherings of people, the gathering of everything from our young people to our elders, people from different religions in Hagley Park to be with the, Muslim people and that's often what happens at the beginning of a tragedy,
[:[00:11:57] Cheryl: but that Slowly dissipates.
[:[00:12:24] Cheryl: And so all of that. Creates energy. but It also, creates a place of uncertainty, and as we know, the brain craves certainty. And so, when things are uncertain, people have this saying, it's like, I just want to get back to normal. And of course, you can't get back to normal because it's only, it will be a new normal, uh, but it's, it's, I just want to hold on to the things that I understand and that are more certain for me. So you, you go through that initial, stage and then, that displacement. It encourages you to want to pull back, and so it's those two sort of not quite fighting against each other, but working together that makes the change really complex, and it also opens up a whole lot of histories about who we are and where we come from.
[:[00:13:45] Cheryl: And everyone was, we're in this together. And. That was true in some respects, but some of my Māori colleagues would be, would say actually we aren't one. What, what the Muslim community have experienced is horrible and we're acknowledging that at the same time we have for generations Had trauma that hasn't been addressed and so that whole opening of wounds or different world views I think is a it's been really interesting and in terms of of changing a city so that sort of resettling in the idea of of The population being quite different, uh, has helped to change the way we work together but some of our old ways of working, especially for our older population, has been difficult.
[:[00:14:59] Cheryl: It's, a really, place of Continued challenges really.
[:[00:15:29] Trisha: You are working with communities, you're working with individuals. How are you as a futures auntie preparing them, preparing both the individuals and the communities for the future?
[:[00:16:14] Cheryl: So the, one of the terms I use is anticipation, not prediction. And that idea is that. There are multiple futures, and so you might have a preferred one, but if you're only fixed on one way of thinking and one future, if that doesn't happen, you fall off your perch, because you don't have alternatives in place.
[:[00:17:00] Cheryl: The smaller, breadcrumbs of change that seem really interesting and maybe a bit bizarre or in themselves aren't anything but, uh, ... When you put those things together, they take on a new importance, and so helping people to understand all of those sorts of things, um, Helps to really flex your future's muscles.
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[00:18:12] Trisha: So we have to manage that. And the way you spoke about time was much more like synchronic time where the The past, the present and the future are all coming together and people feel that sense of the past being with them right now and the future being with them as well, which is much more, much less of perhaps an Anglo perspective and more what we think of as, as in Australia anyway, would be more of an indigenous way of thinking.
[:[00:18:58] Trisha: You're really helping them to think much more, I don't know, is it flexibly agile to be able to handle anything, not just the anticipated, but the unanticipated. So you're really working with their minds in the same way that I'm talking about shifting people around culture. You're trying to shift people in their thinking about future.
[:[00:19:41] Cheryl: And so that, that idea of, you've got to know the things that are out there and what to look for or be curious in an ongoing way, that's the work of, futuring and so past, present and future, Completely interwoven in the space. It's the work of Roman Krznaric, the, the good ancestor. It's the, it's the, the Whakataukī, (saying) the Māori whakataukī, Kia whakatōmuri te haere whakamua which is I walk backwards into the future with my eyes fixed on the past.
[:[00:20:14] Cheryl: And so it's, it's that, uh, we are all of those things all at the same time. And, typically models of the future can just look at. The next steps, but the next steps could be 10 years, they could be 20, they could be hundreds of years.
[:[00:20:59] Trisha: Right.
[:[00:21:08] Cheryl: So, and then move to the, what that might look like in another. Period of time, same period of time. So in that respect, we are creating the future through our actions every day.
[:[00:21:22] Cheryl: Yes, and I don't, I think our perception of what, has gone before as fluid as sometimes it's a bit like a jigsaw. I've got another piece of the puzzle, or I didn't know that about my ancestors, or I was talking to someone else and they had a completely different view of the same event.
[:[00:21:40] Cheryl: That's, that's the, uh, the, the importance of the deep listening and seeking to understand in the work that we do, sort of thinking about our own thinking.
[:[00:21:57] Cheryl: I think when anyone is afraid of anything, you hold their hand and walk beside them. And so, some people seem to thrive on thinking about the future and in fact they're so far in the future that you wonder if they do anything in today but you know that that whole idea of I'm afraid is Taking one small step at a time.
[:[00:23:02] Trisha: Yeah, I love that. I think I do that when I'm working with people who are often moving to a different location. It's one they've never been to. So I work a lot with companies who are sending people overseas to roles where they're working within the company in a quite a different location. And sometimes people are going to places that, you know, are a bit scary sometimes.
[:[00:23:49] Trisha: And so I'll often go So tell me about a time you've worked with somebody who is really different to you, or tell me about one of your friends who, you know, when every now and again, you just go, Oh my goodness, we are so different. And tell us about how you get on. And so that I guess is, is leaning into that practice as well, that positive pockets and, and through that process in the same way, you're probably building self efficacy about the future.
[:[00:24:39] Cheryl: Uh, and not having expectations that they will all be fully into Future's work, and, uh, doesn't matter wherever they, they want to be. But I see my role in the, the leading, uh, the Future's space as being the bridge. So if you think about the social capital model where you've got sort of bonding, bridging and linking and the bonding is with people like you, where it feels safe.
[:[00:25:29] Trisha: Yeah. That's brilliant. Yeah. And so they move from I'm worried about when AI might become sentient to being able to see how they can use it in their current situation.
[:[00:26:06] Cheryl: So I quite often build resilience reading into my work. And that is actively moving out of my filter bubble and all the things that social media gives me because it knows I like certain things. But we actually need to be exploring things that don't sit well with us and thinking why is that?
[:[00:26:45] Trisha: Christchurch, have the shifts, I think they've been through some big shifts in thinking about culture and about the relationship between Māori culture and Pākehā culture and bringing together tangata whenua, tangata tiriti, the people of the land and the people of the Treaty. How do you think those shifts have been supported?
[:[00:27:13] Cheryl: I think Māori have done a good job of continuing their own journey and expecting that things will happen and if I think back to the start of the kōhanga reo (language nest)movement, so those, those, um, Those nests, those Māori language nests where young children, the pepe, the young babies were taught in te reo right from the beginning and that helped to research the language for parents and that kōhanga reo movement then meant that they had kura kaupapa, so Māori immersion schools or bilingual schools, and now we have got a generation of young people from those environments who actually have Māori as their first language.
[:[00:28:28] Cheryl: Um, so, and I think an education We have done a good job at moving ideas forward, although it's baby steps. And so, in any environment, you're taking two steps forward and then just thinking it's exciting and you're getting somewhere, and it's two steps or more back. And so, it's a constant process, and it depends on government changes as well.
[:[00:29:25] Cheryl: And so that's not something that you would reverse.
[:[:
[00:30:17] Cheryl: So I have huge faith in our young people, continuing to drive this work forward and, you know, acknowledging that, we've got polarities, here as in many other countries where there are different worldviews about, uh, what should be in, what should be out or what's woke and what's not and all those sorts of things.
[:[00:30:40] Trisha: love the bit about the future generation. I see, my nieces and nephews and I have to say, you know, that they jog my pronunciation, which as you've observed is, is a bit, uh, clumsy and I'm learning. And, um, are much more fluent and they're Pākehā. Um, but so it's, it's across society that this change is happening.
[:[00:31:25] Cheryl: And I think it depends on the culture you're talking about, and the country, and the history of the country. Uh, in New Zealand, the population, we've got over 5 million, people. We're getting to the stage where we're nearly up to 1 million Māori.
[:[00:31:41] Cheryl: And so that's, that's huge.
[:[00:31:44] Cheryl: and, and we're getting towards an older Pākehā society. And so, um, that's, that's, we've got a burgeoning young population that will be increasingly Māori, Pacific and Asian.
[:[00:32:09] Trisha: I love it. Yeah. We see some similarities in Australia, but. The percentage of indigenous population, um, is much smaller, but the multicultural aspect is certainly there as well. So we have a lot to learn, I think, and a lot of changes to make. When you think of the work you've done over the years, Cheryl, what are you most proud of?
[:[00:32:46] Trisha: Yeah,
[:[00:33:07] Cheryl: That's where I get a huge sense of satisfaction and, uh, where I think perhaps my influence is greatest. So it's not to do with corporates or big councils or, uh, in that sort of space, it's more the, the, uh, nudging the system. And so one of my other hashtags is accept the nudge. Is if you've done something with me or we've had a conversation, what will have changed as a result?
[:[00:33:58] Trisha: Love that, yes. Love, accept the nudge as well. What's your biggest focus at the moment?
[:[00:34:31] Cheryl: And so one of the focuses is on future generations and how you build into the thinking globally of future generations and how their needs might be met. And so there's a group called the Pledge Network that are trying to influence in this space, and I'm just one of the small cogs in that conversation.
[:[00:35:20] Cheryl: So it's quite specific in terms of, let's just try, something really, really small and see if we can encourage a couple of cities to work in this space. So the idea of intergenerational, uh, futures. Um, again, it fits with the indigenous way of thinking, but it's, but it's, um, it's looking at the needs of those today and those of those yet to be born.
[:[00:36:19] Cheryl: So it's obviously still in the future space, but it's, it's doing that work now in order to influence the future, the next steps of the future.
[:[00:36:41] Cheryl: It is, yeah, and I think the important part of this, I'm interested in the big piece, But I can't work in the big piece, that is not my job, or my expertise, and so all I can do is say, which part might I be able to be a little bit like a flea, small but persistent, and, making some sort of impact, and so, you know, some of the things I do.
[:[00:37:16] Trisha: And good to recognize where you're sitting and what the space is. What was the hashtag before? Accept the nudge?
[:[00:37:24] Cheryl: accept the nudge and futures auntie, they're my two common hashtags that I use and accept the nudge is pretty much always towards the end of my presentation and, and it doesn't compel you to do anything, but in our Ōtautahi futures group we've got, the local Futures group have been, had some sort of training.
[:[00:38:04] Cheryl: So the, you know, the river that's, sometimes it's in full flood, it's got lots of braids to it, it spreads out, sometimes it contracts, and that's what our network is like in the future space, is that sometimes you're right in the middle going for it, and other times you're just in the shallows, and that may seem as if you're not doing anything.
[:[00:38:33] Cheryl: to do so.
[:[00:38:48] Cheryl: Like I say, the action accepts the nudge.
[:[00:39:09] Cheryl: That's that's a starting point to be curious If you want to know more about the work that I do or some of the ideas behind futures from a Cheryl Doig slash hashtag futures auntie point of view, my website's www. think beyond. co. nz and That's where I, have information about myself and the work that I do, but also there's an imminent blog post about the work I'm doing on unbounded futures.
[:[00:40:10] Trisha: So people can sign up for your newsletter on your website.
[:[00:40:25] Trisha: Always good value.
[:[00:40:27] Cheryl: hopefully,
[:[00:40:31] Cheryl: Yes, just, search for Cheryl Doig on
[:[00:40:34] Trisha: We'll put we'll put the link in the show notes.
[:[00:40:51] Cheryl: to. So there are some great people in the future space, um, in our, in our side of the world, yeah, that people might like to look at, but globally.
[:[00:41:02] Cheryl: those.
[:[00:41:22] Trisha: There's an element of wisdom about that, but, but also new thinking, which is great as well. So thank you so much, Cheryl. It's been wonderful to speak with you. Um, really appreciate all your insights.
[:[00:41:34] Trisha: Thank you. And so listeners, please, make sure that you've pushed that follow button on the app that you're listening to us on so that you can hear the next exciting episode that will come - of The Shift.
