David Livermore - Part 2 -CQ Strategy - Where Shifts Happen

Trisha: 00:00:25

Hello, everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organisational psychologist and explorer of Cultural Intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness - The Shift. We began this conversation with my guest today in the last episode, giving some real background understanding to cultural intelligence.

Trisha: 00:00:56

So if you haven't heard that one, you're not too sure what CQ is. You might like to jump back and listen to that, or you can do that after you've listened to today's episode. So to introduce Dave, this is David Livermore. He's a social scientist devoted to the topic of cultural intelligence. He's conducted significant research in the area, founded the CQ Centre, which has the online assessments.

Trisha: 00:01:21

And that's where I was trained to become a facilitator in the CQ area. And he is a practitioner who's constantly working with global organisations, corporates and NGOs on how to increase the cultural intelligence in their organisations. Recently, he's taken on a new role as professor of global leadership at Boston University, and the leadership aspect is one that is really interesting as we think about cultural intelligence and as we think about helping people to make those moments of shifts.

Trisha: 00:01:54

Today, we're going to talk about the element of cultural intelligence that is CQ strategy, what it is, how it helps us to increase our cultural intelligence and where that process of shift fits into it. And because I'm asking all my guests the following questions, I'm going to ask it again of you, Dave, and maybe uncover some new stuff about culture and perspective taking together.

Trisha: 00:02:17

So, Dave, what is a culture other than the culture you grew up in that you've learned to love and appreciate?

David: 00:02:25

So the way I would answer that question this time is a country of which I am a citizen, but I did not grow up there, and that's Canada. So I'm a dual citizen of the U.S. and Canada, have never lived in Canada and growing up while my parents always retained their Canadian citizenship, I identified very much with being an American and, you know, had some of just the healthy Canadian American rivalries that were there.

David: 00:02:51

And over time, I started to realize that one of the reasons I think I appreciated Canadian culture so much is actually I resonated with many aspects of it more than the US culture, I'm sure in large part because my home and our family was a Canadian family, etc. So yeah, there's there's been a real resonance with that. And actually only a few years ago was during COVID, I actually got the certificate to say I was a Canadian citizen as well as American.

David: 00:03:22

And you know, I haven't yet gotten a Canadian passport, but part of that was my mom had just passed. It was an important part of my identity to say, hey, you know, this is part of who I am.

Trisha: 00:03:32

Oh that’s lovely. And in lots of ways, I think as a mother of someone who has, we actually gave our children New Zealand passports and Zach was not born in New Zealand. He was born in Australia. But I'd like always to think that they have that special connection as well. And yeah, it probably is something about the way we raised them, the way you were raised and the values in the home.

Trisha: 00:03:56

Yeah, we're talking in this podcast about culture and about how we see culture and about how sometimes we have these moments of shift, the moments when we have an AHA experience and recognise things differently. So maybe we see a new perspective, maybe we can hear our own judgments or biases but a moment that is a moment of clarity.

Trisha: 00:04:20

So when we can shift in, if you like, in the way that we are working and operating. So can you tell me about a time when you've experienced this shift?

David: 00:04:31

Yes. And this one's a little difficult to share. I haven't shared it publicly other than just one other time. And let me back into it by saying many in the diversity space, as well as us in cultural intelligence, often say, you know, impact matters more than intent. So intent is important, but I can't see your intent. All I know is how it impacted me.

David: 00:04:55

And so an experience where that kind of became illuminated for me was actually in a culture very close to home. Last time I shared about one that happened in China, this was in my own organisation that I was leading and I kind of have a reputation. And this won't surprise you, Trisha, because we have more than a decade of relationship of being a bit of a jokester, light-hearted, you know, trying to lighten the moment.

David: 00:05:19

And so I often have a reputation in our office of being someone who would either startle people or bang on the door. You know, our team was very fastidious and it always sounded like a library. So I'd come in after traveling for weeks at a time, like GOOD MORNING EVERYONE, or something. So anyway, yeah, that people just knew that was my thing.

David: 00:05:38

Well, I'd heard through the grapevine that one of our staff, a young black woman, was, you know, very bothered by the fact that I had a couple of times, like, punched her cubicle in particular when I came in and actually voiced it is sometimes I wonder if this is like a microaggression. And, you know, I started to hear about this.

David: 00:05:57

I'm like, oh, my word like is. And of course, the initial reflection I wanted to do as it relates to shift is is there anything to the fact that she's black and I'm doing this? And of course I immediately moved to no, I did it to this guy who's white and this person here. This is just obnoxious, Dave and I should say my wife inserted as I was reflecting on this, ‚I’ve been telling you for 30 years, most people don't like to be startled, so maybe you could just stop doing it, period.

David: 00:06:23

But regardless, the race part of it unnerved me, especially given the work that we do. So eventually, you know, indirectly through a few other people, I asked, Can I have a conversation with this individual? And she was very nervous about it. You know, she's like, am I in trouble? You know, this was not like a formal hr. Complaint.

David: 00:06:44

I just kind of mentioned something. And, you know, I assured her, I just want to, like, clear the air and have a conversation and learn for my benefit. So we began to talk. She kind of shared a little bit of the background of it, and I could tell she was very nervous as she was talking. And at one point and I wouldn't always say this is the right question to ask, but at one point I said, Can I ask you what you think my intention was of doing that?

David: 00:07:10

And she says, I think it was you being playful inside. I'm like.

David: 00:07:16

Yes! That's exactly what it was. So intent, you know, did even come through. But then she went on to say she was like; However, I have a traumatic past with having experienced a lot of abuse, and when I'm startled like that, it triggers all kinds of things in me. And even though I could work out of my mind, you weren't trying to be abusive or trying to be discriminatory.

David: 00:07:43

I had to deal with all that. And she said when I shared it with one of my co-workers, they were like, just tell Dave not to do it. And she's like, Tell the most senior person in the organisation, please don't do that to me. Like, that just felt like it was too big of a ask. So for me, the shift was, Oh my word.

David: 00:07:59

Not only am I myself teaching about these topics all the time, and I even knew like intent doesn't translate into impact. But even though she did know my intent and viewed it as relatively innocent, it still didn't change that it had a negative impact. So it only happened a couple of years ago, but it's one that I've reflected on a lot as the ongoing shifts that I continue to do myself in this work of even while we talk to other people about how to do it better.

Trisha: 00:08:28

Absolutely. And I think that that is one of the key aspects that we need to be continuously learning. And a lot of that learning is embedded with within our own thinking and our willingness to go back and reflect and our willingness to be open to to thinking about things. I guess there wasn't a specific moment. It was probably a growth awareness for you, than new awareness about intent and impact.

David: 00:08:58

Yes, I would say overall it was over a series of several weeks, you know, moving from feeling defensive and like, well, fine, I'll just be Mister Uptight, not show anyone like levity to eventually, you know, accepting it and having hope. But if I had to say a moment, it was at that moment in the story I just shared where she, where she named my intent accurately.

David: 00:09:24

And it was like I thought, sure, she was going to say like I was doing it to intimidate her or something. And then it was like in part it was disarming, but it was, you know, the very thing we teach so much in cultural intelligence that, you know, what means respect to me may not mean respect to you and many other examples of that.

Trisha: 00:09:47

Yeah. And what's going to build that relationship or what are the barriers to building that relationship might be unexpected and, you know, something really important to somebody else that is of minor importance to us and so if we aren't open to recognizing that.

David: 00:10:06

Yeah, and I think you do, you really synthesized it well there because I think that's where sometimes people become defensive in diversity training or when we're talking about cultural intelligence. So. Well, give me a break. Like you were trying to be a nice guy. What does it matter if I was trying to be a nice guy? If it makes you uncomfortable and she could even see I was trying to be a nice guy.

David: 00:10:27

Probably doesn't matter that it's it's, you know, triggering experience for me so.

Trisha: 00:10:32

And we also need to acknowledge the role of your wife. You know, probably the person who who is your reflection your reflection piece. Quite often, I imagine.

David: 00:10:43

That's that's a great point, because in both ways, as I was overreacting, she was also like, hang on. You know, like the average person doesn't find that your humour is appalling and offensive, but that also doesn't mean you get a pass whenever you. So, no, I appreciate you saying that because thankfully she's a confidant who will be hard on me.

David: 00:11:07

Most people don't like to be startled but also be like, okay, let's not overreact here and say I'm my whole thing is a fake. I'm not even culturally intelligent in any way.

Trisha: 00:11:17

Yeah, Yeah. So let's take a step back and think about the the aspect of cultural intelligence where the shift lives, which is CQ strategy and you’ve, you've researched this, you've written about this, you've coached, you know, leaders around the world about this. What are some things you want people to know about CQ strategy when you were training or coaching them?

David: 00:11:46

One thing I would want them to know is you may already be doing, or at least hearing about practices that will also help you in your CQ strategy. For example, all the talk that we're appropriately hearing these days about well-being and meditation, mindfulness, yoga, whatever one's preferred thing is. I mean, you and I know well that the research says exercising that muscle, even if it isn't it related to an intercultural experience, can actually be something that will help you with it.

David: 00:12:17

So in part, don't make this harder than it is. Like realize some of the other things that you're doing can help with it. I would say I've used in both the episodes we've done together, I've used the word reflection several times, and I do think that's something that's fairly concrete that people can relate to of how do I reflect on this?

David: 00:12:37

For me, you know this about me Trisha. For me, reflection happens most with writing. Like I take my journal with me everywhere in the world, and almost every morning I'm reflecting a little bit on, you know, what conversations did I have yesterday. Okay, I interacted with Trisha and had an interesting conversation about some things she's just been through. What did I learn from that?

David: 00:12:57

I have many friends and colleagues who would say, oh, put a put a I don't want to use that metaphor, but someone who who might just say, you know, please don't make me write that. Let's just, and in some cases I might say, oh, come on, push yourself. But in other ways they may say, I'm a verbal processor.

David: 00:13:16

Like, you know, let me go for a walk with my friend and talk through the experience of what happened. So I think we need to pull back from the dogmas on, here’s how you exercise mindfulness. It should you should be meditating 5 minutes every day. You should be journaling every day, or you must be doing yoga. Figure out what it is for you.

David: 00:13:37

You should be. If I can use a should engaging in some kind of reflection, but, Find the one that you know, you don't have to work extra hard to do it. I mean, there's always some discipline. Two other things, I'd say, in terms of what I would want people to know if I was coaching or exhorting them to think about CQ strategy.

David: 00:13:57

One is just the value of a cultural interpreter. So particularly with the kind of situation that I just talked with, I have a few friends who also happen to be black, but you know that there could be other individuals who could help me with this to who I really process that experience with them. And I knew they wouldn't worry about being tough on a white guy would give it to me like it is, but like, help me kind of think through what's an appropriate way to do that.

David: 00:14:25

You know, name the culture and it can be super valuable if we have that. And then the last thing I would say is sometimes I think people might think of something like awareness as a very passive thing, like I'm just sitting around and am I aware, but that awareness is it's actually, you know, it can be a verb that it's a very active kind of anticipating in purposely saying what's going on in the situation, What what do I need to pay attention to?

David: 00:14:54

And I know that's a lot of work that you do when you're coaching to like of of what should I be aware and aware of what? So those are a few thoughts.

Trisha: 00:15:05

And those are brilliant. I think sometimes, like you, I've had people go, no journaling, no. I mean, I wrote a guided journal to help people in the process of adapting to another country. And yes, you you reviewed it for me, but I will offer that to people. And they’ll go, no, not not really my thing, which we understand.

Trisha: 00:15:28

And some people don't actually process with other people as well. And so when I'm working with people, it's it's almost like some people exist and I don't have any research behind this. It's probably more coming out of my coaching processes and practices that some people exist on a on a level of operating intuitively, but they’re not necessarily stepping into that observer position.

Trisha: 00:15:58

You know, um, in leadership training and coaching. We often talk about, you know, stepping onto the balcony and seeing your team operating and interacting. And it's that process of being able to sit above things, both self and others. And it's almost like I want to take people's hands and help them to step to that place. And some people seem to do it quite well and others are a little bit, you know, it's more challenging for them to see that.

Trisha: 00:16:28

And I'm wondering if you've had conversations like that with people.

David: 00:16:32

Yeah, I mean, we can all probably even think about friendships, right, where it's like, wow, Are you aware of anyone else? You've talked about yourself for the last 30 minutes straight, and I would say there’s some research to bear out what you're talking about, that in part, a lot of successful executives in particular are very intuitive. And talk about I just know in my gut; I know what the data is going to say before I even see it.

David: 00:16:57

But it's really not just from the gut, like there's been years and years of programming that gave them kind of a sixth sense, if you will, what it's there. Where I think this becomes so important is when you're in a diverse or an unfamiliar situation, suddenly now the gut may be telling you the wrong thing. And so you've been programmed to say X means Y when it actually may mean Z in this scenario.

David: 00:17:21

And to be more concrete about it, like if you're picking up on what someone's eye contact means or doesn't mean, well, that might be what it's always told you in a Western context. But what does it mean now that you're in this Middle Eastern context or Latin American one?

Trisha: 00:17:35

There's two components that I think are sort of different perspectives, if you like, and we can have different shifts with. So one of it is awareness of self, an awareness, I think, of our own culture and where you know what we have grown up to believe. We've, we've you know, the analogy is often the fish swimming in the water.

Trisha: 00:17:59

We've taken that water for granted as something we can breathe in and then encountering a different culture. We suddenly realize that other people think very differently and we can see what we ourselves believed. And for those of you who've been listening to the series so far, that was one of the examples I gave in the initial introductory episode.

Trisha: 00:18:19

But so there's there's how do we help people do that and how do we help people recognise their own both both cultural programming and also the moments when we might be responding to something in a way that, you know, is not the way we want, is, as you said, about how, you know, your initial response was, well, if you you know, if you if you can see it, why don't you?

Trisha: 00:18:43

So the initial response may not be the most helpful one. And we need to sort of step through that to something else. So if we think about that, first of all, becoming more aware of our self, you know, where where have you seen that growth happen? What have you done to facilitate that?

David: 00:19:02

A couple thoughts. One is, you know, international experiences are one of the best ways to gain insight on yourself because you often find yourself comparing yourself to where you're going. And we have found that they often have far more value for those of us who are from the majority culture at home than they might be for people from underrepresented groups.

David: 00:19:26

Because if you are a person of colour in a place like Australia or well, depending where in Australia, but a place like Australia or the US, you're constantly aware of how different you are from other people. But you know, there was some interesting research done a few years ago about a Pennsylvania university where the professor asked the white students to describe their culture and they're like, what do you mean?

David: 00:19:51

You know? Whereas to ask a black student to do it, it came very naturally to them. So I said international. It could also be just going to a different region in your own country or being surrounded in a different ethnic community. But that's a key part. I certainly don't pretend to be an expert on this, but books like The Body Keeps the Score are things that I think can be really useful.

David: 00:20:13

What we're thinking about this practice of how do I pay attention to things like my heart rate, what happens to me in general when I get stressed and are those things happening as I'm intercountering, as I'm encountering rather a intercultural situation? Are my shoulders going up? Am I tense? Am I talking faster, etc. so that mindfulness that direction no substitute for having a coach if individuals have that of, you know, people giving feedback on how they see themselves.

David: 00:20:44

So those those are a couple of things in terms of the the N-word, other things you would add that I've missed.

Trisha: 00:20:51

No, I'm I'm I love the body keeps the score. I think that's really good in terms of noticing yourself and noticing what's happening within you. Yeah, I also it's almost like there's an element where you need to be able to notice you're in a dialog and at the same time not get so caught up in it. So there's,

Trisha: 00:21:13

There's a balance there. And I'll often ask people, you know, what did you hear yourself saying in that moment? You know, what what was going on inside your head to sort of unpack a little bit around whether there's a bias or a judgment that might be happening, which, you know, we know unconscious bias. One of its problems is that it's unconscious.

Trisha: 00:21:36

So we often don't pull ourselves up on our the thoughts that might be running through our head, that might help us to uncover some of those biases. So, yeah, it's a little bit like trying to take take the conversations we might be having with ourselves. If we can make them explicit, then we can see them in and sometimes see how ridiculous they are or see where they are, perhaps showing that other people are thinking differently, that it's not about judgment, it's about difference.

David: 00:22:09

Yeah, and you reminded me when you mentioned unconscious bias. I mean, another tool that many of us are very familiar with but may not leverage enough are all the different assessments and inventories that are out there. So whether it's something like the implicit association test, whether it's a CQ assessment, whether it's a cultural values inventory and finding out do I am I scoring more individualist or collectivist?

David: 00:22:33

And that can be a powerful tool of reflection, particularly if I then have a conversation with my team and I might say this says I'm direct, I don't think I'm direct at all. And the team going really, because we all think you're very or may be like, Yeah, I agree, you don't seem very direct. So, you know, assessments only have value in the way that we actually make meaning from them.

David: 00:22:55

But I think that can be another useful tool, a strategy that I think may serve as a segway between the internal awareness and other awareness is sort of that infamous Toyota principle that they used a five whys, you know, asking, you know, why is it that this individual was upset that I startled them? Okay, well, why didn't that trigger kind of fear or why did they think that even though I'm playful, that I just still wasn't a safe person to let them know, please not do that, etc..

David: 00:23:27

So I think in ourselves, I can ask why was I so irritated by that or why was I feeling so stressed? And when it's with others, I don't mean that we should it be asking that person, Why are you upset with this? But asking internally what's behind that and what's behind that and that? So far it's a it's a fairly simple technique that, you know, many of us have ripped off from the the Toyota method of quality control.

David: 00:23:52

But to say and in the awareness place as well, we can use it as a way to dig deeper and to try to make sense of our awareness of ourselves, of others in of of situations.

Trisha: 00:24:02

Yeah yeah that's, that's so true. The five whys is really helpful if you're thinking about the awareness of others. And I know we've got, you know, a whole lot of differences coming to the play here. And some cultures are more other focused. Some people's neurodivergence may make them, you know, less able to observe others or may make them increasingly aware or most painfully aware of others.

Trisha: 00:24:33

So what other things when you're thinking about helping people to recognise how other people are showing up with us, and in taking that into account, I think we all know people who operate on their own track and continue on that track and we really want them to be alert to what might be happening in front of them that they're just not observing.

David: 00:24:59

In front of them with others or. Yeah. So one, one technique that I use repeatedly with groups because it's rooted in so much important research or metacognition, is perspective taking and in particular first person perspective taking. And you've heard me share this research before, but Adam Galinsky out of of Columbia assigned a group of students to describe an elderly gentleman sitting on a park bench in New York City, and he separated them into three groups.

David: 00:25:31

The first group, all they said was write a paragraph about what you see. The second group said, Don't use any negative stereotypes about this elderly gentleman that's sitting there. Just describe him in neutral terms. The third group, he said, write in the first person, you are this elderly gentleman. What do you see? And what he found was that the first group very much resorted to a lot of negative stereotypes about the elderly, poor, clueless, lonely man.

David: 00:25:58

You know, in his final years withering health second group, which is kind of clinical. I sit here every day. I see this third group well wrote the most positive humanizing description. I've had such a rich life. I've watched some of these same kids walk across these blocks for years to go to school and now to work and now taking their own kids.

David: 00:26:17

And so I'll often use that is a when, particularly if you're interacting with someone who seems to not be able to even appreciate why someone might have a different perspective than there's try to voice their perspective in the first person in non-pejorative ways. And I was doing this with a lot of companies when we were in the throes of the vaccine debate surrounding COVID and on both sides of it for the anti-vaxxers.

David: 00:26:42

Okay. Could you for a moment just argue against yourself from the perspective of someone who thinks vaccines should be mandated in the workplace and vice versa, and it starts to mitigate some of this clueless sheeple who don't know what they're talking about to saying, okay, even though I still don't agree with the perspective, I could at least see how you may arrive at that perspective.

David: 00:27:04

That's different from mine. So it's just one of those relatively simple things, but it's just a shift. There's that word. I wasn't even trying to do it, but in helping us kind of think through the eyes of somebody else.

Trisha: 00:27:18

And that is very powerful in the way you've described it, the research and then putting it into practice with, you know, some of the clients that you're working with, is, is very powerful. Thank you for sharing that. And that probably is a good place to wrap up. So thank you so much. Dave. I was going to say, is there anything else?

Trisha: 00:27:34

And then I remembered that in your your book you were talking about don't ask if people have any further questions, but ask, what questions do you have? So imply that there probably is something else. So what? What haven't we discussed that is part of your thinking that would have been helpful.

David: 00:27:53

You know, there are a number of interesting innovations coming out to help us with the idea of mindfulness and metacognition. And some of those things are like eye tracking software to help people watch a video incident and see how they respond looking at the brain activity, but a much simpler way that all of us can can work on being more mindful ourselves of our activity looks is things like filming ourselves on a Zoom call, you know, seeing like, okay, it's painful, right?

David: 00:28:23

But watching the recording afterward, you and I were recently exposed to an application. Yodlee, having a something that kind of tracks your communication and your your word choice. And I remember you said this at the time it was being demoed to us that not only the feedback from it, just knowing that your conversation was being tracked was a mindfulness activity, a metacognitive kind of exercise of thinking about thinking in terms of what you're doing.

David: 00:28:51

So for all the appropriate fears about AI and some of that that's out there, there are also some really good tools that I think we ought to leverage to help us work on how we make the shifts related to our cultural perspectives and our development of cultural intelligence.

Trisha: 00:29:07

Absolutely. And maybe there's some we can build. We'll keep thinking about this. Thank you so much, Dave. This has been really brilliant. I will be putting lots of resources into the show notes for to help people just dig a little bit deeper and feel free to continue on this journey with us as we navigate the shift and looking to increase our cultural intelligence through increasing our cultural awareness.

Trisha: 00:29:33

Thank you so much, Dave. Really appreciate it.

David: 00:29:35

Thank you. Trisha.