Dawn Bryan - Shifts for Global Leaders

Trisha: 00:00:00

I would like to acknowledge the Tharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

Trisha: 00:00:40

Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspective, especially different cultural perspectives. And why, sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness. The shifts in our thinking. As those of you who have listened to some of our earlier episodes will be aware, Cultural Intelligence CQ the capability to be effective in situations of diversity is made up of four areas.

Trisha: 00:01:18

There's motivational knowledge, metacognitive and behavioural, and there's a strong evidence base that tells us that CQ helps us to operate effectively in situations of diversity. In this podcast, we focus on the metacognitive aspect, thinking about our thinking. I first met today's guest when she was leading a global Not-for-profit board that I was a member of, Families in Global Transition.

Trisha: 00:01:48

This was a team of 12 that spanned four continents and seven time zones, and they were volunteers. And that has its own challenges. During the time we worked together, we had many challenges and achieved many things. I appreciated admired Dawn's leadership greatly. I've since worked with her, observing her leadership of a different global team at Kaleidoscope Group, delivering boutique consultancy services in diversity, equity and inclusion.

Trisha: 00:02:18

Dawn, welcome to the podcast. Please tell us a little bit about yourself and your experience in global leadership.

Dawn: 00:02:27

Thank you. Trisha, it is great to be with you here today. Thank you for inviting me. I guess my experience with global leadership started when I was really young. I was 23 when I left my passport country. I certainly didn't leave my passport country as a leader, but I had to be away from my passport country for 24 or 25 years.

Dawn: 00:02:50

And so as one does, you grow, you, shift, you expand. and I was offered, and afforded some leadership positions during that time when I was outside the U.S. so, I think the minute I got on that plane, whether I knew it or not, I, at the age of 23, my life was going to change.

Dawn: 00:03:14

And I’m so grateful that it did. And so over the course of our time living, we were based in the Horn of Africa. And so during that time, I was able to have the the great privilege of moving into some leadership positions and in an international school, on board governance for a couple of schools. My husband was involved in, leadership, for an organization that we were with.

Dawn: 00:03:42

And so, you know, that also afforded a different kind of opportunity to see the insides of leadership in all those different ways. and then that the opportunity with families in global transition, which you mentioned, and then also here at part of the leadership team at the Kaleidoscope Group. So it's been a journey. Wow, I feel old, but, really grateful for the different kinds of opportunities that have come and leadership and, and also being able to walk with other leaders as they're either, entering those roles or, have been established in those roles.

Trisha: 00:04:20

Great to see people developing and growing. Today, I'm curious to learn more about the way we can get people to think differently about people leadership, about global leadership. It's it's leadership within a country also that acknowledges diversity in the team. So it's not necessarily somebody who's spanning different countries. And so I'm interested in how we can help leaders shift their thinking.

Trisha: 00:04:42

and that leads to a shift in capability so that people can be more effective. But first of all, I want to go to the questions we ask all of our guests. So, Dawn, what is a culture other than the culture that you grew up in that you have learned to love and appreciate?

Dawn: 00:04:58

Well, I mentioned moving to the Horn of Africa at the age of 23, and that was such a formative experience. We moved to Ethiopia specifically, and honestly, it changed my life. And I think because it changed the way that I saw life. And so it it is a culture that is so dear to me became so dear.

Dawn: 00:05:22

and there are so many beautiful things about Ethiopian culture and, and I can only speak as an outsider. Even though we lived there for 24 years, I'm still an outsider, and I recognize that. And that I will never be able to speak like an insider. But, from an outsiders point of view, we were welcomed and we were treated with such kindness.

Dawn: 00:05:46

And I learned so much. And it's where we raised our three children and gained so many rich friendships that it is one that we think of every day, even though we're no longer there.

Trisha: 00:05:56

And I imagine in that time there, I mean, you've already alluded to to shifting in some ways, but can you tell me about a time that you experienced the shift in thinking when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective? It doesn't have to be back then. It could be, you know, more recently, but I'd love to hear about a time.

Dawn: 00:06:15

There are lots of things that come into my mind as as you asked this question. It's a brilliant question. I think there's a couple ways that I can answer this. One, there is just the new ways of seeing things and cultural practices and, you know, one one that comes to mind is and this is maybe an easy one, it's just this sense of hospitality that, you know, they gave me a new way of thinking.

Dawn: 00:06:45

It's it's the ‘come in, have a drink, have something to eat’. It's sitting at a table and having someone go by and saying in the bla, come eat with me. Even if they have their own lunch or even if they're on their way hurrying to another meeting. It is. There's something about this amazing hospitality that opens your eyes to, oh, we can actually do that.

Dawn: 00:07:06

That's important. that makes people see that, you know, feel valued, seeing, heard and respect it and loved and and it's this sharing of what you have. It's being for another person, even down to a very morsel of food. I think there were some more significant shifts, deeper shifts. So there's a shifts where you see that life can be done differently.

Dawn: 00:07:30

And and we do it in our own culture. And it's actually beautiful. Right. And it makes this an amazing sense. But I can remember our first, time out of the country and we left in a little bit of a, traumatic medical evacuation. And I was sitting in, in a safe space. So I had time for self-reflection, and I had a time of peace in which to do that self-reflection that the emergency had passed.

Dawn

:: 08:05:19

and I was thinking back to, you know, our first four years in Ethiopia and self-reflection in a time of peace is a real gift. And I remember being struck with the awareness of how I was showing up for other people. And that's also a really good gift, as seeing and, you know, we, we know how we see ourselves.

Dawn: 00:08:30

but getting a sense of how other people may have seen us can cause a big shift. And I realized that, during this time of self-reflection and actually had been praying. Right. So I was praying about situations and, and, and just this gentleness of ‘Dawn, you probably show up in a way that you don't want to show up in a way that dismisses others, that comes across as culturally superior, that doesn't appreciate the beauty, undervalues the beauty, undervalues the value, certain things about Ethiopian culture.’

Dawn: 00:09:11

And there had been, you know, I was young when I got off the plane, thought I had so much to offer and in that time of, reflection, realizing that that probably gave off an air of superiority and that, honestly, I was being offered far more than I could ever offer in return. That was actually a really helpful shift, because then when we went back to Ethiopia after the time of medical leave, I hope I was able to change my behaviour or at least be aware of what I was doing and how I might be coming across.

Trisha: 00:09:54

So you and, often when we think about these situations that people describe, there are some commonalities that people talk about. And for some people, there are these moments of introspection and elements that enable them then in that moment to see themselves from a different. It's almost like you stepped outside yourself and stepped into the shoes of the other people and saw yourself completely differently.

Trisha: 00:10:21

And you've given yourself space and time. So those things obviously were important to help you move into that way of thinking and to open up. And I guess maybe I'm just assuming, please. And but, you know, you were imagining yourself from the perspective of people that you knew and loved and cared about you'd worked with. So all of those things probably helped you to see a little bit differently.

Dawn: 00:10:45

Yeah. And I think I was gutted. But I, I likely needed to be.

Trisha: 00:10:52

In the in the launch episode for this, I shared a time in China where I was discussing something with somebody and, and I was busy. What was it? It was an argument, really, but it was not not an I'm not an aggressive argument, but I had this sudden moment of awareness of how selfish I must seem to him and and thinking selfish, me?

Trisha: 00:11:14

And this is not who I am, you know. But I could see that from his collective perspective. My points that were so individualist would have just seemed so selfish. And I agree with that whole gutted feeling of, oh goodness, you know, I don't want to come across in this way. This isn't this isn't in line with my values.

Trisha: 00:11:32

So, yeah, but I think maybe we need those moments of, I'm not too sure what emotion gutted is. So, yeah, I'll have to think about that one, but, yeah, I think we both know what you mean. It's that it's that sort of depth of feeling, of dissatisfaction with who we have been and how we have presented ourselves and and a desire to do different.

Trisha: 00:11:56

So that's a really good thing, because hopefully when, when you went back, you were, as you say, able to show up differently.

Dawn: 00:12:06

and that's part of learning, isn't it? And it's seeing the kinds of things that we're doing that aren't serving us well or aren't serving other people around us well. And that’s a part of leadership right. And I wasn't a point, but I certainly it's not showing up in a way that, was, you know, the way that I wanted to or the way that probably helped the people who were around me.

Trisha: 00:12:31

Yeah. And so thinking about the leadership bit and thinking about the people around us, it makes it even more critical as we're thinking about global leaders who may be listening to this. If we think about, leading, I guess across cultures, across countries, what are some of the shifts you think leaders might go through that maybe there may be shifts you have gone through?

Trisha: 00:12:56

but, you know, if we think about that global leader.

Dawn: 00:13:00

I think there is this awareness of what it's like to be somebody else. and as we think about leadership in an organization, maybe it comes down to just three big buckets that we talk about at the Kaleidoscope Group. And those are empathy, vision and depth. And for the empathy part, thinking about the people in our teams of what is it like to be them, what are their experiences?

Dawn: 00:13:22

What are their opportunities? What are their barriers? How are they feeling? You know, and and once we see what the barriers might be for somebody having that vision to say, how could this be different from them? Or we hear about their experiences that are, not as good as we would want them to be. Right? And maybe not as good as other people's experience in the organization.

Dawn: 00:13:47

And thinking about why is that? Why is there a difference here? And is that something that I can control and what could it be like? And then - Vision. So seeing the gaps for people. And then having the vision to see how you can address those gaps. And then the last part is depth. So having the wherewithal inside to use your leadership position to make the vision come through come true.

Dawn: 00:14:11

Enact what it is, take action. that takes depth. It takes a willingness to to lean in. So I think there's there's something in there. And as we think about global leaders and maybe this is this is for any leader, but with a global leader, I think, we can't assume what people's experience is because we will always read that through our own cultural lens and likely get it wrong.

Trisha: 00:14:34

Yeah. And from both what you and I have said, that's exactly you know, we we've been in various places in our lives getting it wrong. Yeah. I'm thinking about cultural intelligence. I'm thinking about the drive component. So you know that that motivation towards people. So that desire for for anyone in our team, whatever country, culture, identity they're holding, that we've got that drive to work with them, that there's not somebody that we think, really, you know, and, and sometimes we might blame personality, but in reality it's something about the culture or something about the way of operating that comes from, that person's background that we sometimes write off as personality, but it may

Trisha: 00:15:18

not be. And so, again, we got to work to, to build the drive and be able to step in to that empathy.

Dawn: 00:15:25

I can remember, a conversation I had with, with a leader, and we were talking about leading across cultures and, and working and living in a, in a, in a country that's not your passport country. And in this tendency to, you know, leadership is complex and it's hard. So you might lean into the easy, which is just addressing the things that that are the easy things to address or the people that you, you know are or have most affinity with.

Dawn: 00:15:52

It was this leaders words I will never forget. and I said, well, what what would be the, you know, the ramifications of that or something? And they said I should pack my suitcase and go home. Cause if I did that. If I did the easy if I only leaned into the the things that I wanted to or the cultures that I felt most akin to or affinity with, I will no longer be able to do my job.

Dawn: 00:16:18

I have to do what is hard. I have to be willing to try and figure out the the cross-cultural things that are happening. I, I need to be a student of someone else's culture. I need to ask those questions. What is it like to be you see how it could be different and make sure that that works for everybody, not just me, and then take action.

Dawn: 00:16:37

And if I don't, I should just pack my suitcase.

Trisha: 00:16:40

Yeah. I think, for global leaders, that sense of, you know, there are some cultures or some people I'm, I'm more drawn to that I have more affinity to. That's a real challenge. And so good on that leader for recognizing that it existed. What are some of the other challenges that you think global leaders face?

Dawn: 00:16:57

If we stick with this empathy, vision and depth - I think each one of us has, as a leader, has a proclivity for the things that are good. That we're good at it. And and so some leaders might be incredibly visionary. Some leaders might be really empathetic. And some, you know, leaders might be very action oriented. And the truth is that we need all three of those things.

Dawn: 00:17:20

And so if we have empathy but we don't have vision or depth, then what we do as leaders can be very ineffective. We may really lean into, oh, I get you, I understand what your, you know, barriers are and what your challenges are. But if we don't see what what can pull, you know, the organization or a team members, you know, up and out of those or we're not willing to do anything about it.

Dawn: 00:17:47

Then we’re not effective. And in the same way, if we are a great visionary, we have lots of drive to take people where we want them to go and take the organization where we want, but we have no empathy.

Trisha: 00:18:00

We’ve left people behind.

Dawn: 00:18:02

We can talk about all the things, right? We talk about all the things. And while we can, we make great speeches. but we, you know, don't really get people's situations and we actually aren't going to do anything about it, and we're just insincere. And, you know, then there's also the people who have depth, the leaders that have depth, but they don't have empathy or vision.

Dawn: 00:18:23

And so they're taking action, you know, in multiple ways, in multiple places. But it may not be addressing anything. And they can't bring people with them in the vision. And so then it's just it's it's, it's it's incompetent team. So you need all three of those things to be an effective leader. And, and then you add the layer of global over it.

Dawn: 00:18:46

And what you need is wise counsel to go along with that so that you're interpreting, you know, what people you're not making any assumptions about what's happening around you culturally or what people will find inspiring as you make your speeches and what actions will be seen as inclusive. And so you need really wise counsel, and you also need the skills, the CQ skills to make, to make changes, to make, you know, your communication words to, you know, to to ask those questions in a way that is culturally intelligent.

Trisha: 00:19:20

Right. Yeah. I'm wondering, about leaders at home. So leaders who haven't left their passport, country leaders who aren't necessarily leading across borders, but they are leading a diverse team. And I'm wondering how this is similar or different for them. You know, what do you think they need to think? you know, what shifts do you think they might need to make to be successful in their work when it comes to leading in diversity?

Dawn: 00:19:45

well, I think you can never go wrong with empathy, vision and depth. A little bit of complexity added to it when you're working across, cultures. I think there's also, I mentioned, I think, wise counsel that works for anybody anywhere. and when we think about, you know, wisdom and how do we gain wisdom? I think wisdom is being able to see things through as many eyes as possible.

Dawn: 00:20:09

And and to get that, you surround yourself with a company of counsellors, or, you know, mentors, advisors, friends, just, people who see the world in a different way than you do. And you can trust them to speak honestly to you and any leader anywhere needs that.

Trisha: 00:20:29

It's amazing when I've asked people about shifts, how often there is someone that wise counsellor, that mentor. Sometimes it's the partner. but you know, people will say, I spoke with or, you know, I discussed this. Yeah. So those those significant others, if we allow them to, can really help us to shift take us on that different perspective journey.

Dawn: 00:20:51

You know, I think we have, a misunderstanding or a concept in our head that to be a leader is to know all the answers by ourself and have all the answers by ourselves. And what an amazing amount of pressure that would be if that is our, you know, how we think about things and how lonely. and one of the things I love about our team at the Kaleidoscope Group, and one of the things that I loved about working at Families and Global Transition on that board with with all of you, is that the belief that more brains make things better.

Dawn: 00:21:25

And actually it's it's it's having people bring their brain to see things differently. it is the divergent viewpoints that make us better. And that's, that's the role of a leader is to bring those different perspectives together and, and figure out how you create something new. through all of the, the individuals who are there, something new and better and, and, I, I firmly believe that there is no problem too big that enough brains together can't solve.

Trisha: 00:21:58

I think there's been a lot of work done in psychology to debunk the whole great man as leader. And I think, thank goodness. and so moving away from that as an ideal, the reality is, though, we still spend a heck of a lot more money, in terms of developing people as leaders who are in developing in a way where they're thinking about themselves rather than thinking about their team and so thinking about leaders as a part of their team, in their situational, situational leadership is far more critical than thinking about them developing a specific trait.

Dawn: 00:22:36

And we talk about empowered leaders empower teams. It's about it's about the other. Leadership has to be others cantered and in sometimes in some cultures, that's very countercultural.

Trisha: 00:22:48

Yes, yes. You're right.

Dawn: 00:22:49

But it's almost, you know, my service for you. And and sometimes that means taking a backseat. Sometimes it means being the last person to speak. Often it means being the last person to speak, not the first. often it means not being the loudest voice in the room. It looks like listening to others rather than having others listen to you, not demanding your own way.

Trisha: 00:23:11

And within all of that, it means understanding. If you are in another culture, recognizing what leadership is perceived as in that culture, and being able to merge those, blend those concepts and those ways of operating in ways that that do bring the team on the journey, but at the same time, give them the confidence that you are the leader they think you should be.

Dawn: 00:23:33

And so sometimes that looks like going counter to your own culture.

Trisha: 00:23:37

Yeah, exactly.

Dawn: 00:23:38

And and I can think of, you know, times where, you know, my I'll just use my husband, who is incredibly humble and, and maybe was, demonstrating that in ways that weren't meaningful in the culture in which we were and, and so what he meant as humility, may not have been, you know, taken in that way.

Trisha: 00:24:01

So, yeah, that can be true for, I Aussies and Kiwis who are used to much lower power distance. And so I want everybody to call them by their first name and to be one of the crowd. And that's not necessarily the way it goes down in some cultures. I know when we think about leadership that it just does look differently in different parts of the world.

Trisha: 00:24:20

That's one of the challenges. But when we think about the team, I feel like there's got to be some needs, you know, that that are universal, that everybody comes to work wanting some things. And so I'm wondering if you, you know, if you've thought about that and how how people show up and then how leaders can, can sort of.

Trisha: 00:24:39

Reach people and deal with their needs in those situations.

Dawn: 00:24:42

One of my colleagues has come up with a scale that I think is quite, quite good. But I would say here with your listeners, from all cultures that they're dialling in from or listening in from, if this lands with them. But, some of these, I think are universal. And one is, am I valued or respected as a human?

Dawn: 00:25:04

But am I valuable to the workforce? And so is is the work I'm offering helping us do something? Then another question is, am I connected to my colleagues? So there's been some research that other people, you know, do you have a friend at work? And, and, and whether this makes you more engaged in your job or not.

Dawn: 00:25:25

so in my valued, am I valuable, am I connected? Then there's two more. Am I equipped with the resources to do what I'm expected to do? And then the last one is, am I inspire by my work? so I think I believe that you can be inspired by your work no matter what it is that you do.

Dawn: 00:25:42

And, so I'd love to hear from your listeners. Does this land? Is this a is this a, you know, a does this apply to every culture?

Trisha: 00:25:53

Are these needs are universal? Yeah. And at first glance, they certainly sound that way to me. They fit with a lot of the positive psychology work that's been done in terms of, people's needs. and acknowledging the, the depth of people. Yeah. So everyone, please feel free to let us know what your thoughts are.

Dawn: 00:26:10

Okay. So it's valued, valuable, connected, equipped and inspired.

Trisha: 00:26:14

Absolutely. Yeah. And yeah. So and that's probably a good time to talk about how we can follow up. So I will put in the show notes. Dawn's LinkedIn connection. And you can connect with her there. She'd love to, have lots of conversations about these things. And I believe Kaleidoscope Group has something and offerings for leaders right now.

Trisha: 00:26:36

Is that correct?

Dawn: 00:26:36

Absolutely. So, we are starting our next cohort on June 3rd. We're really excited about it. And it is that empowered leaders, that empowered teams. It is a cohort of other leaders from other organizations around the world who are coming together to learn, together. I mentioned those multiple brains. This is your chance to be, with other leaders bringing their brains, their experience, their knowledge, and also their challenges so that you could work together and really be talking about how to be more empowered as a leader so that you can empower your teams so that your organizations can achieve the things that you want and need to, and people are interested.

Dawn: 00:27:19

Please reach out to me on LinkedIn or, with my email address, which Trisha will put in the in the show notes. I would be very happy to tell you more Earlybird pricing taking place right now. we would love to have you join.

Trisha: 00:27:33

And this is a virtual program so you can join from anywhere in the world who is a who's. Of course. For what sort of people leaders are you thinking? C-suite. Right. You know, are you think new people leaders? who exactly is it for?

Dawn: 00:27:49

If you are a people leader in any way, shape, or form, this content is for you.

Trisha: 00:27:53

That's brilliant. So don't thank you so much for all the things we've discussed, been great to think about global leadership and the shifts that leaders need to make.

Dawn: 00:28:02

So thank you. It was wonderful to be here.

Trisha: 00:28:04

And I hope everyone that you found it interesting. please connect on LinkedIn and if you are following us on your podcast and you haven't yet, click that follow button, please click it so that we will appear in your inbox. In your app inbox, for next weeks session of The Shift.