Episode 54
Hanlie van Wyk - Reasonable Revolutionaries and Human Eco-Cultures
In this episode, Trisha interviews Hanlie van Wyk, a systems thinker, social scientist, and cultural insights advisor whose work spans South Africa, the UK, Singapore, and the United States. They explore Hanlie's concept of "human eco-cultures" viewing organisational cultures as ecosystems that leaders can proactively design rather than simply manage. The conversation delves into how her hate crime research in South Africa shifted her perspective and contributed to national legislation, demonstrating how Cultural Intelligence (CQ) can address foundational biases before they escalate to discrimination and violence. Key insights include how leaders experience their greatest shifts when they realise actions speak louder than words, and Hanlie's inspiring vision of becoming "reasonable revolutionaries" who forge new paths with courage and kindness.
Connect with Hanlie van Wyk. Resources mentioned include the Anti-Defamation League's Pyramid of Hate and Bronfenbrenner's Ecological Systems Theory.
Make sure you join Trisha in this journey of growth and discovery throughout the year via Substack or LinkedIn.
Transcript
[00:00:05] I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.
[:[00:00:45] Trisha: Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a bit of a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives. Especially different cultural perspectives and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness, the shifts in our thinking today, I am thrilled to welcome my friend and colleague, Hanlie van Wyk a systems thinker. Social scientist and cultural insights advisor whose work spans continents and cultures. Hanlie's journey began in South Africa and has taken her to the United Kingdom, Singapore, and now the United States, where she helps leaders design human eco cultures and navigate cross-cultural collaboration.
[:[00:02:07] We have stuff to unpack from that and so much more. Hanlie, welcome to the shift.
[:[00:02:14] Trisha: And before we dive into our conversation, I'd like to remind our listeners that cultural intelligence covers four key areas, motivational, the CQ Drive, cognitive, the CQ Knowledge, metacognitive CQ Strategy, and Behavioral cq Action. And on this podcast we particularly focus on the metacognitive aspects. That means thinking about our thinking. And today with Hanlie, we're gonna explore how these elements come together in her fascinating work across cultures. So Hanlie, what is a culture other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?
[:[00:03:01] Trisha: Okay.
[:[00:03:22] Trisha: Of course.
[:[00:03:48] And so, in a strange way, it was familiar but very unfamiliar. And I really loved how they honored and celebrated their culture. Because that's not really something that, you know, I would typically do with my own culture. And so that for me was beautiful to see and I really appreciated that about the Hawaiian culture.
[:[00:04:30] Their connections to Hawaii So very much understand how you could connect to the joys there. So our second standard question, Hanlie, is can you tell me about a time when you experienced the shift, when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?
[:[00:05:10] And one that stood out for me and that I remember to this day was interviewing the woman who was sharing stories about during childbirth or any difficulties they were having during pregnancies and going to the hospitals or the clinics.
[:[00:05:58] But the level of neglect and. Lack of care that they got and pure victimization in some instances for me was so shocking that it actually galvanized me doing my PhD. And got me through that.
[:[00:06:54] Hanlie: So it started, I think in 2009 or 10, where we were approached by a not-for-profit organization saying there are these spikes of hate crime or hate victimization in South Africa, specifically aimed at that time to towards foreign nationals. You know, subsequently a lot of information also came out, and it's still happening all across the world, you know, against L-G-B-T-Q folks or folks with disabilities and so on.
[:[00:07:46] And so. We took it on ourselves as part of the university and the Hate Crimes working group to actually gather data from different sources in different provinces in South Africa in order to create this foundational database that we could take to the government to lobby for those laws. So it was a five year study.
[:[00:08:29] So it was really gratifying to see that work. That we did over a long period of time. 15 years actually gets to where it needs to be. And hopefully that will make a difference to, you know, those, the people that we interviewed that had that impact on me that I mentioned earlier.
[:[00:09:05] Hanlie: So, you know, we were working on the end where it was happening. I was trying to work my way back, trying to understand how do we get here,
[:[00:09:24] And what was very helpful for me in that time to get my head around it, was the A.D.L. Anti-Defamation League have got something called the Pyramid of Hate. And it is a pyramid that shows how these foundational behaviors that don't seem very serious, you know, are typical like biases and stereotypes and generalizing and so on. Can sometimes kind of go up a level and become a little bit more like microaggressions and you know, telling the kind of jokes that probably you shouldn't be telling. You know, all those kinds of things that are, listen, just a little bit more barbed. I call them the little foxes. Those little things that just catch people and that can sort of lead up to the next level where violence.
[:[00:10:30] To violently exclude people, and that's left unchecked.
[:[00:10:43] or what they call this concept of slow genocide, right? Like just slowly eroding an entire culture away, an entire way of being away. So I think cultural intelligence plays an.
[:[00:11:24] Trisha: that makes perfect sense. And for listeners, we will put the link to the A.D.L. Pyramid in the show notes so that you can see it. Represented pictorially, although Hanlie did explain it very well there to me it makes sense thinking about it even, because often I use cq, the model as a sort of a mnemonic in my head to jump through as I'm coaching people or as I'm training, and I'll be thinking, you know, they really need to increase their drive towards this group of people. You know? So what could help motivate them feel more positively towards this group of people to lean in to this group that they.
[:[00:12:19] And I can see, as you were saying, that I could see thinking about that model and thinking it through. And so, yeah, we can sort of see links to how organizations can use that in a way. In your LinkedIn profile, you mentioned that you help leaders design human eco cultures. Can you explain what you mean by that term and how it might connect to, you know, the sorts of things we're talking about here?
[:[00:12:54] This is how humans in my view, also function. There are many of us, there are different ways in which we interact with each other. There are different functions that we all have in communities and societies, and I do think that they often arise organically or if you like naturally, and some of that is healthy and some of that is not.
[:[00:13:43] So that's part of the work that I do is to make sure that when we engage with organizations small or large, that the leadership team is begins to think of their culture as an ecoculture into which they have actual agency and everyone else in the organization also, but they're the leaders. So know they have to go first.
[:[00:14:19] He was sort of saying how hard it is that sense of achieving the change you're talking about. So do you think looking at it as an ecosystem enables. You just see it differently 'cause you're not trying to see the whole thing that you have to change. You can see parts of it. Do you think that's part of how it helps?
[:[00:14:44] You know, if you, some people are naturally more big picture views. Some people are a little bit, you know, more detailed views and both of them are very valid and very important. It's moving between the two that I find is where, you know, a lot of that kind of intelligence comes from.
[:[00:15:24] And I believe that if you look at it as an ecosystem or an ecoculture, you'll have a little bit more patience with it, knowing that it's probably gonna take Yeah. a year.. For you to get there. And you have to keep your eye on the ball.
[:[00:15:57] Not that they weren't sitting up while I was speaking about cultural intelligence my friends. Don't get me wrong. But could you explain to our listeners, I guess, how this framework is fitting into what you're saying about the ecosystem, and also we can put that diagram into the show notes as well to help people think.
[:[00:16:40] So it's these five nested environmental layers, if you like, or yeah, five layers. There is, in the middle is the individual. Around that is the microsystem, which is sort of immediate relationship. The Miso system, which is connections between these microsystems and Exosystem, which are more indirect influences, and that could include things like media, a macrosystem, which are the cultural values within that system
[:[00:17:25] Trisha: Absolutely.
[:[00:17:44] Trisha: And so many people want to simplify things and just see the issue as between two people and we as psychologists can see so much more, and social scientists as well because is Bronfenbrenner, a psychologist, I think, Came more from the social science side. I think. I think one of the interesting things, and when we spoke about this in our presentation at the A.P.S., is that so often.
[:[00:18:59] We do hope they have thought about the culture of that place, but we're also aware that some organizations who are working multi nationally don't always blend the culture of place for the different places that they are. In a way that is helpful to the individuals as well. And so being able to take that complexity and see it is probably helpful.
[:[00:19:50] Hanlie: It was very interesting when I started doing a little bit of training in the CQ model that, I think the travel and the exposure certainly helped me. I think with the first three, and you can certainly correct me here, which is like the motivational one, the cognitive one, and the me metacognitive one, right? So drive knowledge, strategy because you know, obviously you learn about cultures as you go there. You have to learn how to adapt. You have to modify your language, you have to buy different things. You have to find, you know, a pharmacy that.
[:[00:20:24] So I think in all of those things, but what surprised me when I was doing the training is that I had to keep on working on the CQ action piece.
[:[00:20:50] So that piece for me was really interesting because I think I tend to adapt, but I forget that other people are also trying to adapt to me as I'm moving in that driven context. Right. So, so it, it was kind of a fun thing to, to go through the model and have that realization as well.
[:[00:21:28] 'cause it is, it starts in your thinking and then. It will blend into your action. And so what happens at the end is that the e for engagement, authentic engagement means that you are then operating and acting in a way that's more about the other person than about the traditional ways that you would automatically have behaved before.
[:[00:21:56] Hanlie: So the other tendency that I learned about myself through the work that I'm doing is that I think because of the history of South Africa and the 1994 transition into a democratically run government. Elected and run government country. There was a big move towards finding common ground because there was, we, you know, we were so fractured and so far apart and so the whole thing was trying to find common ground in all different ways. And perhaps, you know, your listeners will remember that like the rugby was a very big deal in bringing the country together and there was a whole movie made about and so on, right?
[:[00:22:59] And so that was interesting and that expanded my thinking into saying, well, how do we look at research? Are we looking at research in a very particular way? And I then came across this concept of weird, which was very interesting saying, you know, our lenses are very much that, of looking at the world and research through a very western lens, a very sort of educated lens.
[:[00:23:31] Right. And often these countries are industrial. They're reasonably rich. More often than not, they're democratic
[:[00:23:57] Hanlie: No, not at all. And so, you know, if you are interested in that and understanding. As a researcher or as a scholar or someone who's just a psychologist that's interested in that, it might be worth reading a little bit of that work. You know, of course there are people who have opposing views and have a critical lens towards that, but it's, I think it's still very expansive to just make yourself realize that we shouldn't necessarily look at all the research and the facts.
[:[00:24:26] Trisha: Where do those facts come from? right. right. Yeah.
[:[00:24:48] Hanlie: So my PhD focused on trying to develop a framework or guidelines for psychological organizations and specifically membership organizations like the APAs, like the a PA and so on, like SAS
[:[00:25:07] Hanlie: South African society. Yeah. So any of the national membership organizations that exist to which psychologists belong. To create a framework for them and specifically for the leaders who play a role in guiding a lot of the strategy, the policies, and have a lot of connections often also with policymakers.
[:[00:25:59] Spill over in society and the societies in which they exist and give them some of the tools to help psychologists, but also policy makers and practitioners and scientists a lot of the victimized hate victimization that we see in many of our communities nowadays.
[:[00:26:38] And. For those of us who are organizational psychologists, you know, responsible for working within organizations and seeing organizations through those lenses as well.
[:[00:27:09] And if any of you want to be volunteer supervisors for that, they're always looking every year they're looking. But it was great because it allowed me to have a cohort of 10 students from all over Europe. Each of them did their own research on their country of origin and their country of residence, because often they were, those were two different things, I would say nine out of 10.
[:[00:27:55] You know, if they've been if they've been victimized. You know, and looking at those different countries and the cultures and understanding was for me a very expanding and exciting experience.
[:[00:28:21] Hanlie: Right, And I think also it was about legacy, right? Like, like making sure that young people in psychology who are passionate about it. and Care about competent care across cultures because often they third generation
[:[00:28:47] So you know all the nuances around that. Because they are gonna be the leaders one day. They are gonna be the people who are gonna take us forward. And I'm hoping to give them some exposure into that so that they can deepen the work
[:[00:29:03] Trisha: Fantastic. So, so in lots of ways we are looking at membership organizations of psychologists and their actual, like multinational organizations. You know, we don't really think of them usually like that, but they are, you've done a lot of work in MNC. So, if we are thinking about.
[:[00:29:37] Hanlie: I see the greatest shift when they realize that actions speak louder than
[:[00:30:15] That a behavior change is not a habit. You know, you can't do it just for three weeks and think that it's done. The understanding that this should be a new way of leading, a new way, of being a new, of engaging that's when I see the biggest shift.
[:[00:30:55] Hanlie: It is so interesting. I had this exact conversation with the 10 students that I had that I have
[:[00:31:11] Forge your own path because often we try new things. I'm trying something new.
[:[00:31:36] Trisha: that is fantastic. And as you look at your life, the people you've worked with, your family community, and look at the future, what are you hoping for?
[:[00:31:52] Trisha: Reasonable revolutionaries. I love it.
[:[00:32:09] Trisha: I love that. We need to look for ways to do that. We need to, yeah. We won't talk about guillotines and things like that. Yeah. Hey. Well thank you Hanlie. It's been great to talk today. I'm looking forward to the work that you will do and I'm looking forward to the work that you and I will do together in what we've you know, been doing over the last few years, but especially what we started with the A.P.S. Just recently.
[:[00:32:57] These conversations are part of that. Shared learning journey. And if you can think of someone that you could share this with and that might help you to work well with them in a sense of building your own cultural journey, please do share. And don't forget to follow us on your preferred podcast platform and join us next week on the shift.
[:
