Joanna Sell- Storytelling for Cultural Shifts

Trisha: 00:00:00

I would like to acknowledge the Tharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

Trisha: 00:00:40

Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives. And why. Sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness. The shifts in thinking, and those of you who have listened to some of our earlier episodes will be aware.

Trisha: 00:01:06

Cultural intelligence CQ the capability to be effective in situations of diversity is made up of four areas motivational, the drive, cognitive, the knowledge, metacognitive, the strategy and behavioural the action. All four of these capabilities can help us operate effectively in situations of diversity. In this podcast, we're focusing on the metacognitive aspect, how we think about our thinking. It's CQ strategy, and today I want to look into how storytelling impacts our awareness of ourselves and others.

Trisha: 00:01:46

It's our thinking, it's our emotions, and it's all the things that go with that. And to help me with that. Today's guest describes herself as a story facilitator. She is an interculturalist, an author, an academic lecturer, and a public relations advisor. She has master's degrees in both art history and European studies and numerous other qualifications besides. It's an honour to welcome my first European guest who I know has so much to share with us.

Trisha: 00:02:20

Welcome to Joanna Sell. Lovely to have you here, Joanna.

Joanna: 00:02:24

Thank you so much to Trisha, and thank you for this beautiful introduction. I'm so happy you reached out to me. I am happy to be your first European guest. It's an honour.

Trisha: 00:02:34

Oh that's wonderful. Thank you. Was there anything I missed from your experience in your studies that you would like our listeners to be aware of?

Joanna: 00:02:41

Actually, you gave a fantastic summary. and as you introduced me as a European guest, it's really very, very interesting because I came originally from Poland, so Middle Eastern Europe, and I'm based in Germany. I moved to Germany because of love. surprise, surprise. I realized pretty quickly. Okay, I need to add something on, to my qualifications.

Joanna: 00:03:11

So I studied European studies here in Germany. It was back then really this area of hope and the biggest EU enlargement. And then afterwards, I added also one program at the university in Vienna. And the intercultural communication. So qualification as an intercultural trainer and coach. And this is what I currently do.

Trisha: 00:03:40

And this is perhaps the common ground that you have with, I think many of the listeners to this podcast, many of whom I think are, you know, themselves, interculturalists, cultural intelligence facilitators, people who are trying to, you know, build those bridges of understanding across cultures. So before we go any further, I just want to mention your book, which is ‘The Art of Storytelling Across Cultures’, because I've really enjoyed reading that.

Trisha: 00:04:10

I will, of course, put the reference and the link to it in the show notes, and we've got a lot to dive into and think about because of all the different aspects that are in that book. But first of all, the questions that we ask all of our guests, Johanna, what is the culture other than the culture you grew up in that you have learned to love and appreciate?

Joanna: 00:04:32

Oh wow. I guess I'm a global nomad regarding different cultures, because I feel home in so many different corners of the world. I really love meeting new people. I love trying out new foods. I love promoting cultures through the music and the arts. So, I feel home in many, many, many corners of the world. Sometimes I'm really surprised because, I see that, it's on one hand side.

Joanna: 00:05:05

Enrichment, on the other hand side, people from, the and surrounding tell me, aren't you sometimes, afraid of traveling just, with women, for example? And. No, not at all. So when I'm, thinking about this, you know, culture of my heart is definitely France. I used to live in Strasbourg for a while, and it was a fantastic time.

Joanna: 00:05:37

French was actually my very first foreign language. So I really, really love speaking it.

Trisha: 00:05:45

Yeah.

Joanna: 00:05:45

And then I was really taken aback by the hospitality in Japan when I was there last autumn. It was a fantastic experience because, it was so, unusual to get there. When I think of my childhood, I grew up behind the so-called Iron Curtain. which meant that in Poland, we, Yeah, we're stuck in a completely toxic political system.

Joanna: 00:06:21

We weren't able to travel, and we didn't have any visitors from the outside world, which actually meant that, I still remember such a situation when we were kids with my cousins that, our grandparents. Our grandmothers had this amazing conversations once. so you should learn foreign languages. You should learn English, French, German, because these are the door openers.

Joanna: 00:06:51

And we argued, why? What is the point? learning foreign languages, is a waste of time because we aren't really exposed to these languages. We cannot use them anyway. So I still remember my grandma, said, once, you know, this system will collapse one day, and then you will be prepared for the world. So it was really, really interesting because as for storytelling, as you hear, there were two contradictory stories told in the, home context and, in the public sphere and those at school and also in public, where, yes.

Joanna: 00:07:38

Stories, that were completely different to the stories we heard home. Those were the stories of hope that one day we can rejoin Europe and also travel the world. So this is actually maybe the reason why I feel home in so many corners of the world. Because it was such a dream to be able to travel.

Trisha: 00:08:04

Yes. And how lovely that your grandmothers gave you that picture of what could be when you yourselves were not able to see it. I, I hope that they were alive to see what everything that you've done and become.

Joanna: 00:08:20

Unfortunately, she passed away when I was 18. so it was, fortunately for her, the time that, Europe was opened and we were able to travel again. Nevertheless. No, not not really. She she didn't really witness, world traveling, in my case. But she would love it, I'm sure.

Trisha: 00:08:48

Yes. Yes, I'm sure she's aware of it somewhere. Yeah.

Joanna: 00:08:53

Yeah.

Trisha: 00:08:54

Just to our next question and and maybe what you've just told me was that that time that you were going to share. But can you tell me about a time when you experienced the shift, when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?

Joanna: 00:09:07

I think it was during, forum for Europe. We organized with colleagues, very close to the border with the Netherlands. And, it was supposed to be one of these events with really lots of hope and great ideas, how we can promote, European identity. And we worked with World Cafe, which means that people were sitting at different tables in small groups and brainstormed, regarding best scenarios for Europe and how they perceive the tiny continent.

Joanna: 00:09:49

And I still remember there was one group, very mixed one where there were people from the Netherlands, from Germany, from, Greece, I think, and from South Africa. and, there was a young person who, young man who actually said, wait a second, but you are talking about Europe as something very, very positive. I see it much differently.

Joanna: 00:10:19

And he got silenced. Nobody listened to him. So he tried once again and he tried once again with very negative comments. And again, people, just ignored him. And then one point he took the black marker and started to darken half of the poster. So there was one half of the poster with positive comments and some tiny drawings, and he started to darken the other half.

Joanna: 00:10:54

So the group was quite shocked. and it was the moment when I approached them as a facilitator, I stepped back. I didn't really react to what was going on. Nevertheless, I was quite stressed because I thought, oh well, this means that of course, we've got, a very, very powerful negative voice, and therefore we need to deal with it.

Joanna: 00:11:21

So this polarization was in the air. And, when the group's work was finished, one after other people were showing their posters. And in this particular group, there was a professor who started, his presentation with folding the poster of the group into two halves and showed only the positive aspects. And I was so shocked about it that after he, was ready with the presentation, after he was finished, I asked him to unfold it and he was really confused.

Joanna: 00:12:02

He didn't like it, not at all. And I said, would you please tell the whole story? What actually happened at your table and what were the other aspects? And I and, I noticed that my voice was trembling, that, I didn't really like the whole dynamics of the situation. Nevertheless, I said it's really, really important. And I guess this is really very crucial nowadays that we, have spaces where people can share their opinion.

Joanna: 00:12:39

And if we don't like this opinion, it's another story. But they need this space to be able to talk about something negative. if we don't offer this space, this negative emotions will accumulate and explode. So the best thing what we can do is really to offer spaces where people are able to talk to each other, to share different perspectives in a very respectful way.

Joanna: 00:13:07

But also my learning was that we need to bring courage. We need to bring a lot of courage and not to just be observers and say, I don't really care, but really to think what is important to us and to share this opinion, because if not, we will see this escalation in the world, not only in the war zones currently, but also apart.

Joanna: 00:13:38

Yeah, because yeah, unfortunately with, you know, hate speech and, fake news, these are exact moments where, we noticed this very destructive power of stories where they are misused, where they are used to polarize people. And it shouldn't be the case with storytelling. We can really, do much, much more in the positive, constructive way. We can, invite people to the table so that they share what is meaningful to them and then try to make a consensus and also respect other opinions.

Joanna: 00:14:25

So this was a very, very big shift for me because I noticed we need to handle spaces where we can have such tough conversations. And what's more, we need to create this spaces in such a way that people can show up, but also can leave without losing face.

Trisha: 00:14:49

And feel they have been heard.

Joanna: 00:14:51

Yeah, because story listening is much, much more important.

Trisha: 00:14:56

I loved, I love that concept of story listening. But before I go to that, can I just acknowledge the courage that you, you said was was important, that that one of the things we need to be able to develop. And you mentioned what was happening in your body and how you observed all of that. And you know, I think as facilitators, we can all imagine the courage that would have been needed at that moment.

Trisha: 00:15:19

And, yeah, how how you stepped into that and owned it and, worked with that in a positive way. So that person did feel heard. And I guess demonstrated it for everyone else in that process as well, that the negative voices can be heard without destroying what the positive voices are saying. Yeah. So some amazing lessons there. Yeah.

Joanna: 00:15:43

Exactly. Because courage actually comes from French. It's cœur, which is the heart. Literally with courage we speak from the bottom of our heart. And I guess what makes us human? This is what? yes, it's a little bit different when we have a dialog with Chat GPT, when we have a dialog where the right thing and this person brings also these emotions and also lots of non-verbal energy, and this is what is important.

Trisha: 00:16:15

Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So we've been talking about storytelling and you've introduced the concept of story listening as well.

Trisha: 00:16:26

I guess I want to just first of all for people because because I have read your book, but I'm aware that many of our listeners may not. So perhaps you could begin by telling us why you think storytelling is so powerful in helping, you know, helping people to shift and changing people's perspectives? When where does the power come from in the storytelling?

Trisha: 00:16:47

Or the story listening? Maybe it's in both. I'm not sure.

Joanna: 00:16:52

It's in both. Both. And when I think of storytelling, it's definitely, first of all, the willingness, to share something personal. it doesn't have to be, all the time, a personal story, because we can work with stories, at different levels. Nevertheless, what is really powerful is addressing emotions because. Because when we address emotions and this is obviously something much, much different than we are used to in the academic context, people can relate to this.

Joanna: 00:17:30

What we are saying, Much better. So, for example, when people are talking about a disaster, just recently, Papua New Guinea, had, this horrible, catastrophe, when you just tell the number of the people who suffered, our brains don't follow such information. It's too abstract. people don't really relate to it because it's too, yes.

Joanna: 00:18:09

Impersonal. so when you want someone to really listen to this information at a much, much deeper level, you need to tell this story, because this is the moment when our brains get activated, not only in the pre cortex, part, but also in the limbic part and the limbic part with amygdala and hippocampus is responsible for processing emotions and for memory, which means that when we listen to the story and and this two structure does get activated, we will tend to remember it much, much longer then just data and facts.

Joanna: 00:18:57

And as you can imagine, this is the tricky part because, as positive it can be when it triggers us to yes, act in a positive way, maybe to support, maybe to donate, maybe to conceal, as much we can of course, also, manipulate with stories. So pretty often I get the question, what is the difference between inspiration and manipulation?

Joanna: 00:19:33

and then difference is pretty clear. It's all about the question, why do I tell this story? What is my intention? When we really want to make someone do something because we can profit from it, our power, our status, our financial situation will improve, then it's definitely manipulation. When we, however, want this person to profit from this story, that the person can grow, that the person can develop.

Joanna: 00:20:10

This is how we can inspire with stories. So, you know, sometimes we hear very, very often stories sell. especially marketing context. Yes. This is exactly the point. Do people buy something because they are triggered in this emotional way, because they really need it, because they can profit from it. Or do they follow this campaign and actually don't really need such a product?

Joanna: 00:20:45

And yeah, it's even a waste of time and money for them. So this is this is really interesting, you know, to be clear about the intention.

Trisha: 00:20:56

Yeah. There was a, a part in your book where you warned people about using stories. And I imagine that's what you were referencing there, that you have to be careful that we're not manipulating and thinking about them, motivation behind what we're doing. Yeah, I think as I think of, well, me and, who I think my listeners are, I think we are intentional storytellers who want to help people increase their understanding of other cultures and recognize how we've been shaped by our own.

Trisha: 00:21:28

And so I'm wondering, what do you think we need to keep in mind, or is there a tool or a strategy? There were so many in your book. and, you know, I've got many notes, but what do you think as, you know, beginners in the storytelling process in terms of intentional storytelling, what might be something that we should be holding in our minds as we want to help people to increase their understanding?

Joanna: 00:21:53

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for the question because it really is very, very important, especially in the intercultural context. So when I think of working with stories primarily, I think about working with stories at the individual level. and also our mosaic identities. The struggle starts when we reduce people to just one layer of their identity. Right? You know, many, many times, I work with a Chinese guy, with a French guy with a German guy, and.

Joanna: 00:22:26

Yeah, how can I actually strive in this team. Yeah, but when you dig deeper, and you have a look at, layers of the identity, if it's a woman, if it's a man. What age? what interests, what educational background. And, then it changes very quickly, and we can actually, search for commonalities and also appreciate it differences much, much better because we see how complementary they are.

Joanna: 00:23:03

And we actually complement each other. And, when we talk to them, when we have this possibility to share stories, this is the only way we can get to know each other better way. I still remember a customer from South America. so sorry, from South Africa. he was, a very, very nice manager who was supposed to move to Germany, to Hamburg.

Joanna: 00:23:35

And he said, oh, you know, I'm so upset because, people from my team don't send me, wishes for Ramadan. And I said, oh, it's interesting. Yes. And I send them wishes for Christmas. And I said okay, have you ever talked to them about different traditions and, religion and. No, no, no, because you know, it's not the theme for a small talk.

Joanna: 00:24:07

I said, so how should they know. You go, you are from the South, Africa. You are, however, of, Indian descent. So actually, any when people think about, you know, the shortcuts, they immediately picture you as a person who is maybe Hindu, maybe. Maybe no religion, but not necessarily that you and your family, yes, Muslim and, that you await the wishes for the Ramadan.

Joanna: 00:24:45

So this was just an extreme example, obviously. But, sometimes people feel hard and not, really belonging. and they forget that they didn't give other persons the chance to get to know them better way. And that's why other people, don't really embrace. yes. Their multicultural identity.

Trisha: 00:25:15

Yes. And I think there's that element I can't recall. But there was an element in your book talking about curiosity, and that element to not just stop maybe at the first aspect that the person shares with us, but, you know, to continue to be curious about somebody sort of, discovering more about them and more about who they are.

Trisha: 00:25:39

And that would that would enable, the colleagues to have understood the Indian man a little bit better, maybe.

Joanna: 00:25:47

Yeah, exactly. This is what the team, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, calls the danger of a single story.

Trisha: 00:25:54

Absolutely. Yes. I loved, there was a quotation, I did not write it down. There was a quotation that you had, in your book, about history from them as well. Yeah. So it was very powerful that, history, shapes us and we shape history and.

Joanna: 00:26:17

Exactly

Trisha: 00:26:18

All of who we are, all of the different parts of who we are. And so, yeah.

Joanna: 00:26:22

Yes. And additionally, she also addresses the idea with stereotypes, that it's not that they are untrue. The problem is that they are incomplete. I guess this is really important because especially in the intercultural, communication, we talk so much about stereotypes. And there is nothing wrong with stereotypes because they simply reduce complexity. This is how we, meaning making.

Joanna: 00:26:49

The problems starts when we notice that we've got this negative aspects as the first thoughts. So actually any we don't talk about stereotypes any longer, but about, prejudices. And this step from the prejudice to discrimination is really tiny. So the steps from just talking, in a negative way to acting in a cruel way is really, really tiny.

Joanna: 00:27:20

And this is very important. Keep in mind and to really focus on the positive aspect. Yeah. I think that the most important issue in working with stories is the positive image of a human being.

Trisha: 00:27:38

And, you reference also finding the strengths in the story. So, you know, the stories as people tell of themselves, will demonstrate the strengths and also the stories people tell. I mean, you speak about, collective stories and how we have stories, you know, as, as nations that we have stories in, as regions, we have stories and, and, and embedded within those, strengths are things that we can uncover and be proud of as well.

Joanna: 00:28:08

Definitely, definitely. This is really, extremely important. And I guess, it's, present in every nation that people either, underestimate this power of the past or they glorify it, though we are talking sometimes about, you know, this, complexes or also, patriotism, but not even patriotism, because patriotism is something positive. And what we observe currently worldwide is this a wave of populism and nationalism.

Joanna: 00:28:47

oh. Also to ask, double ask, oh how this huge narratives get manipulated. yeah. So that people, not only are proud, there is nothing wrong, with pride. That is a, use this narrative tool to show and tell the others we are better. And when you come, you need to adapt and even over adapt.

Joanna: 00:29:17

it's, it's a dead end street, and we know that.

Trisha: 00:29:21

Yes, it just leads to exclusion. And and, you know, we I think every country in the world is having those conversations right now. Yeah

Trisha: 00:29:30

I think I'm thinking of the work we need to do, and thinking about helping people to almost stretch their awareness as they are, as they are planning sessions or as they are facilitating sessions so that they can step into that place, where they might need courage, and they might need to shift and they might need to help people shift.

Trisha: 00:29:56

And, I can sense through all the examples you've given in your book that this is something that you do very comfortably. and so, I haven't really got a good question here, but I guess what I'm asking is, from your experience and from the knowledge that you've shared in the book, what would you remind us to be doing as we're working with people so that we can, you know, sometimes people talk about getting on that balcony and seeing things from a perspective that's not so much deeply embedded and instantly reacting, but it is taking that metacognitive, that awareness of our self, our emotions and others.

Trisha: 00:30:34

Yeah. How do we how can we do that more easily?

Joanna: 00:30:38

I guess we can, really try to work with stories and, my idea is to work with, stories circles. it's a methodology which was established also by Darla Deardorff, who is from the intercultural field, and she published the, UNESCO's. So we are talking about UNESCO's story circles. Nevertheless, of course, you can, create different spaces and, it depends on the facilitator, how you, create and design the flow.

Joanna: 00:31:19

so what I have tried out with the people is, first of all, not to tell them to share the story, because it sounds really overwhelming when people hear, Oh story. No, I have no story to tell. Nothing interesting to tell. Or just other way around. Oh, I have so many experiences. I don't know what to start with.

Joanna: 00:31:42

Yeah. So what is really interesting is the wording and the framing. And in many cases I ask people take us to the moment when, something happened that was meaningful to you. You have overcome a challenge. You have managed to, yes. Just, belong even if it was in the very, very tough context and so on and so forth.

Joanna: 00:32:13

And then people, in my case, mostly work with story canvas because it gives a very, very clear structure. And, you can also find the story canvas on my website. Yeah, in four different languages. German, French and Polish, by the way.

Trisha: 00:32:34

Wonderful.

Joanna: 00:32:36

and then you also go to the story circles. Would this be part, experience? And, what is really important is that people address also how they felt in this moment. they have overcome, a challenge, but also what it meant to them, how they were feeling in this certain moment. And then they share. And when we got the circle of 3 or 4 persons, we can distribute the different roles.

Joanna: 00:33:11

So, the way I do it is that I ask a story listener, to listen really carefully, above all to the strength. So what did this person think was helpful, in storyteller’s, yes, experience that this person has overcome this struggle. And then we've got the witness. And the witness can share what surprised him or her.

Joanna: 00:33:41

What, was powerful in their opinion. what was touching in the story? so with this, the storyteller gains additional perspectives. So this one is describing is standing on the balcony and, gaining this meta perspective. This is really a fantastic way of connecting and also looking at our own story through other, perspectives brought by different, persons.

Joanna: 00:34:18

this is a gift because currently what we can and do, what is really the best for other human beings is to offer them time. so with this gift of time and listening, we can really, Yes. Just, transform someone's life. It sounds very, very big. However, this is something we see in the coaching when we work with narrative methods.

Joanna: 00:34:52

This is something we experience when we facilitate, story circles. it simply works. yeah. And and then people swap roles. So everybody is in this position of the storyteller, story listener and the witness with this, we, also see the power of story listening, how important it is, not to comment immediately, not to react, not to, or let's say at least to try not to think of our own experiences when the other person shares something.

Joanna: 00:35:29

So to switch off this inner monologue, and really try to think what is important to this concrete person, what emotions we observe and how we can support this, person on the other journey. It's very powerful.

Trisha: 00:35:49

And I think it is easier to switch off that internal monologue if you have tasks. And so if you are sitting there listening, so, you know, what what strengths are they showing right now, what's important to them then you are embedded within their story, rather than likely to think up your own. so I think that's a brilliant, technique.

Trisha: 00:36:10

And it is one that you go into detail in your book so people can read a lot more about it. And I will find the link on your website and also put that in this in the show notes as well for the story canvas as a way of recording that.

Trisha: 00:36:24

Thank you. That's that's very helpful. I'm wondering just as we finish up to think about your vision, you talked about impacting people for better. And I'm wondering, you know, how do you want things to be better? And as interculturalists or cultural intelligent facilitators, how do you hope that we will impact others?

Joanna: 00:36:46

I hope that, people, first of all, will have more hope, because, many, many, actions we observe right now are acts of despair. People are really extremely afraid because level of anxiety is really high. So, you know, when we talk about controlling our lives, we always have to distinguish between this circle of control and circle of concern.

Joanna: 00:37:18

but the circle of concern is really big. We tend to focus on, yes, earthquakes and catastrophes and, politics and whatever is happening and we don't really have influence on it. We are just surrounded by this negative news. So this is really important to see what is my circle not of concern, but my circle of control. So what I can actually control, how I can shape my story and my life stories do I want to have more of.

Joanna: 00:37:57

And if I see that actually I want to have more of love, and nature and, fewer, negative, news, maybe, maybe, you know, I've heard and watched several times a day, out of curiosity, maybe it's the highest time to change habits and all, go for a long walk and to emerge in nature instead of watching or listening to the radio every hour.

Joanna: 00:38:31

maybe it's really important to, write down. This is really a fantastic coaching intervention A few things that you think are positive that it that make you joyful and and really to think how they can impact your life in a positive way. If it's going to the museum and looking at art, try to make it happen, maybe at least once a month.

Joanna: 00:39:04

If it's if it's possible, if it's, you know, fantastic. Just to I have no idea to to to listen to the music. you can also have this your time, once a day and really concentrate on it is sometimes it's mindfulness, sometimes it's something different. But really that you are in control, that you can say, I'm creating the story I want to live in.

Joanna: 00:39:35

but I guess this is really important that the circle of control is getting bigger and bigger than this circle of concern, because, yeah, we have this capacities to choose in which stories we want to live.

Trisha: 00:39:52

Thank you. Johanna, that is very encouraging. And I'm sure it will be, too, for our listeners. I will place all of these references in the show notes so that people can find out more about you. is the best place to connect with you on LinkedIn or is there somewhere else LinkedIn is good? Is there anything you have coming up that you wanted to share with people, an opportunity to learn from you or anything you wanted to share?

Joanna: 00:40:19

Trisha, I'm really, really grateful for your invitation. And I guess, you know, whatever happens is the best. What could have happened? This is always my approach from the open space. And it takes lots of pressure. so what, actually happens to me was in the pandemics that they also started the podcast, One Word Stories dot net.

Joanna: 00:40:46

And over there I invited many, many people who actually work with storytelling practices in different contexts. So, for example, in future studies, one fantastic professor, or also, you know, just like Darla Deardorff with storytelling and practices in story circles and so on and so forth. And I guess, all of this wouldn't have been possible if not this curiosity and openness.

Joanna: 00:41:19

I really wanted to hear from the others what works. Because they work with stories. this is also a big, big enrichment of the book that it's not only my perspective but also voices from this many, many people, who, are really fantastic in what they are doing. And I was shocked with who I was standing.

Joanna: 00:41:46

So I guess what is really important is the acknowledgment that, whatever we do that we are standing on many, many shoulders. this is also something what I immediately picture when people work with the hero's journey, it's always the individual and the person you know starts on the journey and deals with challenges and also leaves this, tough times with the elixir.

Joanna: 00:42:19

And yes, the most important part in this journey is actually, the support. So currently when we work with Hero's Journey, we work it very, very often. not only in the context of, oh, leader. Wow. Fantastic. So, in the team. So where different team members are on this journey currently or also with expat families.

Joanna: 00:42:50

So what is in for the spouse? What is, what does this journey look like for the kids? Where are they on this common journey? Hero's journey as a family. So important, this acknowledgment that we are not alone. This is what also is very, very personal. When we think of, you know, how we can thrive in the turbulent times.

Joanna: 00:43:21

Yeah.

Trisha: 00:43:22

Thank you so much, Joanna. I really appreciate all the insights that you've shared with us today. And I hope we will be able to, learn more from you in the future as well. So thank you, everyone, for being with us today. and please do make sure that you're following along on your podcast app so that you can join with us again next week for the next episode of The Shift.