Episode 67
Lucy Butters - Talking "Cultural Intelligence in Practice"
In this episode, Trisha interviews returning guest Lucy Butters, a master facilitator in cultural intelligence with the Cultural Intelligence Centre and author of the new book "Cultural Intelligence in Practice: Expert Insights for Trainers in a Multicultural Globalised World."
What happens when a CQ trainer discovers that the most challenging cultural contexts aren't in distant lands, but close to home? How can holding discomfort with curiosity rather than rushing to judgment transform the way we navigate cultural differences? Lucy shares insights from interviewing 12 CQ experts across the globe, revealing how the writing process itself became a mirror—exposing hidden cultural assumptions in everything from word choices to argumentative tone. The conversation explores her father's wisdom about looking out "with love and respect," and why Lucy explicitly asks readers to use their own cultural intelligence while reading her book.
Buy Lucy's book, Cultural Intelligence in Practice, here! And take a look at Cross Cultural Catalysts. Cross Cultural Catalysts will be a home for cross-cultural facilitators by fostering a collaborative community where members can sharpen their skills, share expertise, and amplify their impact. In 2026, Lucy and Dr Lyla Kohistany will be launching this network. If you wish to be kept up to date about the launch, please register your interest here.
Listen to Lucy's first episode on the Shift - Shifts for Cultural Intelligence Facilitators
Make sure you join Trisha in this journey of growth and discovery throughout the year via Substack or LinkedIn.
Transcript
[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and an explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness.
[:[00:01:25] 'cause sometimes I think it's the complex area a little bit for really understanding. So we look at how our thinking is critical to building our cultural intelligence. And today I want to unpack that a little bit more. With someone I'm delighted to welcome back to the Shift. She's a very special guest, not only a CQ fellow from our inaugural 2023 cohort, but also a dear friend.
[:[00:02:13] Lucy has written a book, "cultural Intelligence in Practice", expert Insights for Trainers in a multicultural globalized world. Does that make you want to buy something dear readers? Well, it does me anyway. Lucy, welcome back to the Shift.
[:[00:02:38] Trisha: It's great having you here. And for those who haven't met Lucy before you could go back, we will put the earlier interview into the show notes for today. But first of all, just stick with us and listen to this. Interview 'cause it's going to be, it's gonna be another lovely experience. First of all though, as with all our guests, we will ask the same question that you've been asked before and maybe you'll have a different answer now.
[:[00:03:08] Lucy: You know, Trisha, I was thinking about this and you do have another answer from me, and one of the things that I've come away from writing the book about is that we don't really need to travel very far to be in different cultural context. In fact, it's often the ones closest to home that I think create the most discomfort for us sometimes because we're not expecting it.
[:[00:04:18] And as a teenager, I had no idea what that meant. But that's how I try and that's a kind of something as I've got older, I think I need to hold that love and respect.
[:[00:04:36] Trisha: Especially if home perhaps has changed. Or is looking different
[:[00:05:13] But thinking I am always contributing to culture. How am I doing that?
[:[00:05:21] Lucy: Absolutely.
[:[00:05:34] Lucy: That's definitely one that, trying to hold that, but also one of the things I'm really aware of, which links to that as I've developed cultural intelligence, is that I hold a lack of trust for much longer than I would've done a decade and a half ago and more. You know, that bit of, I don't really feel that I know where you're coming from.
[:[00:06:24] And so that's something that I think is important about recognizing.
[:[00:06:40] Trisha: And not. Falling into judgment. I love that. Leaning into the curiosity more. Yeah. There's a challenge though. I think you've laid out two very real challenges for people, not necessarily people who are aware that they are changing cultural context, but possibly, you know, they're not moving country, they're not traveling.
[:[00:07:14] Lucy: I did.
[:[00:07:30] What was the shift that moved you from trainer to author?
[:[00:09:06] Someone's responding like this when I try and see whatever, you know, it's kinda how should I respond? My view is always, I don't want to tell anyone how they should respond because there's lots of options, and so for me, I think interviewing people. Was super enriching for me because I feel I've now got these voices and their experience in my head.
[:[00:09:58] I went in as a confident trainer and facilitator. I've not had a shift away from being a trainer. I'm still that person and I've now, I'm much more confident through that process of listening to others. It's been a fantastic experience, so, yeah.
[:[00:10:46] And what struck me was this line, "what was impacting on my confidence. Part of my CQ drive was not about place. It was the knowledge that one of the groups I would be working with were senior executives from UBL Bank. I had never worked with bankers." So here you are, Lucy. You're willing to travel to a place, heaps of people wouldn't, people were warning you about it, but it's the sector or the people, not the place that is challenging your confidence.
[:[00:11:20] Lucy: It's interesting and I think it's linked to what I said at the start about, you know, where we find that sense of, oh, I'm not very sure about this,
[:[00:11:41] So you get a real sense that people are people and people are good anywhere in the world or can be good anywhere in the world. So I'm aware, I don't have a sense of a bad place to be because all places are full of people.
[:[00:12:09] And when I first had my CQ assessment, my drive was lower than I thought it would be. And. It made me realize that things like a bit, all my network is kind of public sector education. You know, there's a slight rub. I feel like that entrepreneurial business or big business or banking, different values, but actually you get into it and it is all just people.
[:[00:13:09] where are those jobs for us and what do we do about it, and what does it tell us about ourselves, you know, all these.
[:[00:13:41] Reluctance or perhaps lack of awareness of their own processes was what made me realize that I needed perhaps more cues and strategies. And so that's why I am doing this podcast to help people work out how they get that awareness. So your awareness, did it come about the bankers? Did it come sort of just in a moment of reflection or.
[:[00:14:07] and everything, you know, it's what? Why was I, so why? So stress. This is brilliant. These people are great. Yeah, absolutely. So I think, and that's often the case when stress
[:[00:14:26] Trisha: Yeah. I love that you make this crucial distinction in the book. It's not the trainer's role to enhance someone's CQ drive. That's their responsibility. The trainer's role is to create a compelling vision with them and intentionally create a space where they can generate insight. So how did interviewing all of those experts shift your understanding of that balance about what the trainer's role was?
[:[00:15:11] Trisha: yeah.
[:[00:15:21] Interviews and talking about my confidence, I think are much more. You know, definite with companies around, if you wanna shift in behaviors, you need to shift in time. You need to put in time, you need to put in work, you need to, you know, it is kinda don't give me three hours of your time and expect things, you know, but you've been there, I'm sure as well, Trisha, that idea of, you know, it's the trainer's role to come and then the trainer hasn't provided their service good. Our role is we have to create spaces where people can engage, where they can find insights, where they can feel safe, where they can feel motivated. So it needs us to have done our homework and think, who is it that we're with? What might resonate with them? What examples? All those different things. And also to be stating quite clearly and to be creating time for people to create plans and think about what they're going to shift, because that's the difficult bit.
[:[00:17:00] And one told you, "Lucy, I'm an entrepreneur. I get an idea or opportunity and I want to pursue it immediately." Exactly the same experience that I've had. So as someone who, you know, conducts the interviews, what shifts did you experience in understanding the challenge of slowing down to be strategic, developing that muscle that Buhari spoke about.
[:[00:17:46] But you had to get to know the people's managers in country who had nothing to do with project if you wanted things. It was highly complex, made so many different stakeholders and all these different things right down to how I want to parent. You know, every day. I am a strategic thinker in that way.
[:[00:18:50] Part of their questioning now is, how did you do that? And so it is building in to how we do things and how we're rewarded and how we're valued different practices. So it's not just the strategy, but it's the action that goes with it so that we realize that there's value to it.
[:[00:19:47] Lucy: and I guess it's not just that they're people, it's that they're not looking to catch me out.
[:[00:20:09] And, but I think that's sometimes what the concern is as well. I, so I think there's a double element going on
[:[00:20:46] You've used this exercise, I think it was one of yours, or was it also one of your interviewees?
[:[00:20:58] Trisha: Why do you think this exercise creates such a powerful shift?
[:[00:21:09] head and yet we react to it. So we're not paying attention. We're not really consciously aware yet the reaction is
[:[00:21:19] Trisha: Yeah. I.
[:[00:21:35] But I've been told that we only ever deal in "fact", as a scientist, you're dealing in "facts" and I'm gonna put that in quota marks for anyone that can see, because anyone who knows about science knows that there's a huge amount of assumption going on around. What elements are important are not important and what's been included in the experiment, what hasn't, you know, all these different elements and, but it was really, it was so powerful for her.
[:[00:23:24] Trisha: I love it. Yeah. You wrote that CQ strategy can't be developed in one event. It's about building a habit. So how did interviewing 12 different experts shift your approach to design of training programs?
[:[00:24:41] And nobody mentioning about culture and she's like, this is what this. The whole course is about, you know, how can you be missing this? So it's, you know, and it's just quite I think it is that habit and often people, she said people would, after the course, they would go on in their careers, say, this is actually been what's been most useful.
[:[00:25:12] Trisha: Seeing it.
[:[00:25:16] Trisha: Yeah. I agree a hundred percent. I like spreading things out and coming back to people and saying, what have you noticed since we last met? you, you write at one point, Lucy, and so I'm quoting listeners. "What I'm also aware of is that I cannot adapt. The way I use my words to match this with your style, I do not know you or how culture may have shaped your preferences. A wise person shared with me that writing's not like training where you can adapt to the people in front of you. Writing's a one way conversation." That's a big shift from what you've been used to. From standing in front of people, seeing what's going on and adapting in the moment so that you are, you know, that you are meeting their needs as they were there to not knowing who they are.
[:[00:26:12] Lucy: So the wise person who told me this was in fact, Dr. David Livermore, who was very supportive in reading a lot of. As I went along, and obviously he's a very accomplished author with, I don't know very sure, probably dozen books under his auspices now. And my style is often to say, I don't want to tell you what to think.
[:[00:26:47] There are questions. Also, at the end of every chapter, I do some reflective questions, but you can't just be keeping the, I mean, you're a coach, so you know that all you need is a question when you're coaching, you know, you need to keep the questions and observations kinda going kinda, but when you're writing it's very different.
[:[00:27:33] But that bit about striking that balance, and I realized that writing was quite different. It just required maybe more input. Well, it's all input, you know, it's kinda every word you had to think about it and can I get it in?
[:[00:28:12] So you're asking your readers to, you know, put on their cultural intelligence and and to use that as their reading. What made you decide that to make that explicit?
[:[00:28:43] You know, when somebody is telling me what to do and I'm thinking, you don't know me.
[:[00:28:54] And giving the drafts out to people to read. You realized that people were coming back with total opposites. And that's something as well. So I had to decide, you know, because you can't write for everyone. It's not possible or you can't write for everyone's preference. So, and I think that process of giving it out to people so that they could give their thoughts is that you realize that there's not a right or a wrong.
[:[00:29:51] I don't like the word because this, so I rejected that change. Most of it, I have to say, there was barely a sentence without a grammatical error, all of those words. But the, because I, I thought, no, I don't want to. The second editor came back and he. Oh, now to my Anglo-Saxon ear, all of these should be because, but I have noticed this, I'm not sure quite what it was called, maybe a Scottish linguistic tick where we may be write as instead now.
[:[00:30:31] And so these are hard baked into us about how we express ourselves. And so that's, you know, that's in the writing. And so I've become aware that I might. Read things such as the because and think, why are we having this kinda argumentative tone when actually to the person that's not argument, that's what I've learned about that language.
[:[00:31:19] Trisha: Yeah.
[:[00:31:21] Trisha: That is so true. So you've been through. Quite a lot in terms of this whole process. It sounds like it's been, you know, not just hard work and all the interviews, all the getting to know people, all the pulling it together, the thinking, the reflecting, and the writing then comes the editing.
[:[00:31:57] Lucy: I think two things.
[:[00:32:23] So. Bringing in these interviewees, I then, you know, they gave me their time, they gave me their trust. I felt. Duty bound to write a book, you know, which may not have done if I hadn't really mentioned it. So bring people in if that's you. Also, I think you've got to work out when you can write. So, you know, I looked at things, how many words a day?
[:[00:33:10] people. Writing's different.
[:[00:33:18] Keyboard. Half an hour later nothing had moved, but I was processing, you know, and I think, so I think you have to get into that bit about giving yourself a bit of grace and thinking, okay, so what's going to make it work?
[:[00:33:55] Don't judge yourself by what other people have done.
[:[00:34:03] Trisha: That's lovely. Thank you. And a final question, as you look at your life, the people you've worked with, your family and community, and at the future before us, what are you hoping for lucy?
[:[00:34:27] Trisha: I love that. Thank you Lucy.
[:[00:34:51] Lucy: There'll be a few in Glasgow actually is the only ones that are currently planned. However, I'm also talking with the British Council Libraries actually in November, which is wonderful.
[:[00:35:13] Trisha: Well, thank you so much for joining us on the shift. We will make sure to put as many of these links as possible into the show notes. And we would remind everybody that this sounds like a book, that if you are a CQ trainer, a CQ facilitator, a CQ coach.
[:[00:35:48] So listeners, if today this conversation has sparked something in you, whether you are a trainer or a leader working across cultures, or someone who is just interested in developing your own cultural intelligence, I encourage you to get the book and to read it and reflect. Thank you all for joining us on the shift today.
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