Episode 28
Sharon Gray - Winangar Guru: Listen Deeply, Go Slowly and Respect Everything
This week, Trisha interviews Sharon Gray, a longtime colleague and friend, known for her extensive work enhancing inclusion and increasing Indigenous employment. Sharon shares insights from her career in the Australian government, non-profit organisations, big corporations, and her consultancy. They discuss the importance of cultural competency, walking alongside people to help them learn; effective community engagement, and creating social and economic opportunities for Indigenous communities. Sharon highlights the principles of deep listening, the cultural significance of acknowledging traditional lands, and the transformative impact of Reconciliation Action Plans (RAPs) in organisations. The conversation also delves into the concept of social value, emphasising its role in inclusive development and intergenerational wealth creation. Sharon’s vision is big - she advocates for local content in projects and takes a holistic approach to infrastructure development enabling community development, and ensuring widespread and sustainable benefits. This is an episode that could shift your thinking and give you hope for Australia.
You can connect with Sharon via Linked in and learn more about the Social Value initiative here.
Transcript
[00:00:14] Trisha: Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness, the shifts in thinking.
[:[00:01:27] Trisha: In this podcast, we're focusing more on the metacognitive aspect, thinking about our thinking, and that is CQ strategy. Today's guest is an old friend and colleague. I've known Sharon for 15 years and deeply admired her for the work that she's done across a range of organizations. She's worked for the Australian government.
[:[00:02:17] Trisha: And so we're going to unpack a lot of that today. Welcome Sharon Gray.
[:[00:02:25] Trisha: It is. It is because I went back and was thinking, where was it? And unpacked it. Yeah, I know it feels like it's flown by, doesn't it?
[:[00:02:33] Trisha: Sharon, I really want to talk about the work that you're doing, the community you're creating, the skills that you've built over the years and how you help people shift in their thinking and to see different perspectives, both for, non Indigenous Australians working with Indigenous Australians and the Indigenous people themselves.
[:[00:02:59] Sharon: that's a challenging one. , cause I, I love my culture. , but, and, and the fact that I've grown up, both, in, you know, an Australian, Indigenous Australian, context. But also to having a, non Indigenous, family as well. So I've had the privilege of two worlds. So I often refer to the fact that I can walk in two worlds.
[:[00:03:48] Trisha: That's wonderful. And can you tell me about a time when you might've experienced the shift, when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?
[:[00:04:24] Sharon: It was holistically the impact of the infrastructure that your company's building. What impact is that going to have on the community? And how do we get the community involved? So that's where all of a sudden it becomes much bigger than just one thing. It becomes this holistic approach. framework where you're looking at, and I, and I put it down to four, four key areas and, and the framework in which I work is, I look at it from a cultural competency perspective.
[:[00:05:14] Sharon: How do we,
[:[00:05:19] Sharon: You know, a company supply chain and, you know, and then that goes back to what I call, you know, what we refer to as generational wealth and that creation. So, it, it's a much bigger picture. So, you know, we see the impact of employment. But when you see a whole community movement happening in those four areas all at once, it's amazing.
[:[00:05:50] Trisha: And so when you first came, I'm imagining the shift was you were coming from other work where you had been more focused on building cultural competency within an organization. And then you gained this shift to see that much broader perspective and the impact on the wider community as well.
[:[00:06:10] Sharon: Yes. And it, and it's, you know, there's no point in building the infrastructure if only a few are going to benefit from it. So then when you look at it, that's where the whole concept of social value comes into. So it's more than just, the infrastructure that we build, it's the community that's got to interact with it, how they're going to interact with it, how we're going to acknowledge First Nations people, how we're going to educate people, how do we not lose, that culture, but at the same time, creating, opportunities, social and economic, opportunities back onto our communities, to bring them on the journey with us
[:[00:06:52] Sharon: The design, part of the infrastructure development, and then also to moving forward, how a community interacts with that, that infrastructure.
[:[00:07:27] Trisha: Do you think, did it take, you know, a little while to get that shift or was it sort of instantaneous and you suddenly saw the possibilities?
[:[00:07:56] Sharon: As much as you want to sit down and you want to eat the whole lot at once and consume, you can't do it. It makes you sick, right? As beautiful and yummy as, as you want that chocolate cake in your, you know, in your taste buds and in your tummy. It needs to be cut into bite size, amounts so that it can be digestible.
[:[00:08:37] Sharon: So it's almost like building your allies or champions around you. So that light bulb that you might have, you want to create that same light bulb in others.
[:[00:09:05] Trisha: And so maybe we just come back to that for a moment because you are working with, you know, non Indigenous Australians and one of your responsibilities is helping them to understand and to see, to see the bigger picture, and maybe to make a shift themselves and they're thinking about, indigenous culture, maybe, you know, maybe some unlearning that people have to make.
I know you've been doing a lot of that work for many years. How do you help people shift in their thinking around indigenous culture and, you know, the things that they might need to learn or unlearn?
[:[00:09:48] Sharon: And the other thing is for non Indigenous people, just because you've done that one course, whether it be online or face to face, doesn't mean that you are culturally competent.
[:[00:10:00] Sharon: So these are some of the challenges that you've got. And the way that I talk to my team, it's almost like our job is to hold someone's hand and walk with them and help them see what we see.
[:[00:10:42] Sharon: But also too, it's a two way street. So, as much as, you know, someone might be, you know, my team, people that I work with are learning from me, I'm also equally learning from them. So, you know, you mentioned, about, oh, well, you know, we're just building a bridge. The first thing that I go is, well, where is the bridge going to be built?
[:[00:11:29] Sharon: I didn't actually built it, But this is the impact that it has. I had an involvement in that and that can be shared with others. So when you're, you know, and you're a local person and that's the community and that's your community and then you're driving across that bridge, You know, mum and dad or uncle or whoever, or auntie are going to say, I built that bridge, so there's a sense of pride that goes with it.
[:[00:12:12] Sharon: Not because it's, created a shortcut or we can cross that river. It's also around, well, this is whose country it is, and it might have certain design elements on it. There might be some artwork on it, which then informs, you know, people will be driving and going, Oh, that looks pretty, or that looks nice, I wonder what that means.
[:[00:12:54] Sharon: And we do that collaboratively with our peers. And with our communities.
[:[00:13:31] Trisha: So, you know, what are the sort of the shifts, I guess, that they need to think that they might need to learn about to come and work, with the way that you're working?
[:[00:14:02] Sharon: So with that is, that's where the community engagement comes in where you talk to various people within the community. And through that, it's a series of conversations where you're basically saying, you know, This is who the company that I work for, who they are, this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it.
[:[00:15:09] Sharon: But upon having those discussions, right from the early stages of those, those, and I'll call it a yarn, we introduce ourselves and go, Oh, where are you from?
[:[00:15:41] Sharon: We hear about, there's, you know, opportunities to engage with, the local school. The local school has a school based apprenticeship program. We might hear that there's services that support that. We'll hear about, What the community are doing and how highly involved or not involved they are within the community.
[:[00:16:22] Sharon: So then when we're looking at how we're going to engage and work together, that is led by the community, not by us. So then it helps us put together, suitable programs where we work in collaboration with the local community. So whether that be a school based apprenticeship program, could be a pre employment program, or it could be just general recruitment where we're looking for someone to come in and, you know, do some, and it's not just coming in and doing, what do you call it, early, entry you know, level entry jobs. It's, you know, we're looking at the whole skill set, of people , and what roles they would be suitable for.
[:[00:17:22] Sharon: Yes.
[:[00:17:30] Trisha: And the fact that, you know, we're listening to stories and we're taking things from them. And it sounds like, you know, you, your team, your people really need that ability to listen and that ability to build trust so that people will actually tell you this stuff as well. Because you're not just going to necessarily tell any old person who turns up with a cake.
[:[00:18:14] Sharon: And, and, and the concept of deep listening and that whole concept of deep listening is around listening. And sometimes, you know, we have also the saying is that listen with your eyes. Because, and that's your observation. You don't necessarily have to talk to have a conversation. And it's sometimes when, especially when you've been taken out on country, and people are showing you around on country, you don't necessarily have to talk.
[:[00:18:48] Sharon: feeling. So, that's what that means.
[:[00:18:59] Sharon: Oh, no, you, you don't, but yeah, yes.
[:[00:19:05] Sharon: Oh, we all like a yarn,, but yeah, yes,
[:[00:19:22] Trisha: And, um, that's something, you know, in talking to other, I work a lot with American and some other organizations globally. And there's not a concept as widespread, I think, in other countries. of the RAP. So can you tell me a little bit about the RAPs that you've worked with organizations and, and how you get organizations to, to recognize the need, to take it on board, to really, to make it meaningful and not just a thing that sits on the website and,
[:[00:19:56] Sharon: The first thing, I mean, reconciliation action plan, is, is really your, is the company's strategy on how they're going to work in this space. It's not about, you know, your aspirations. It's around what it is that you want to, want to achieve and the direction, um, that the company needs to go in and wants to go in. down the line in
[:[00:20:39] Sharon: So, so when you look at it, you've got your actions, your, your deliverables, you've got who's responsible for it, and you've got your timeline.
[:[00:20:49] Sharon: So, you know, any business, you need to have strategies, you need to have your policies in place, and this is how a RAP should be treated. So in, many of the companies that I've worked, in, and especially the one that I work in now, our stretch RAP is our corporate strategy.
[:[00:21:26] Sharon: And what it does, it encourages the business to have a look at the bite sized chunks. So the whole chocolate cake that I talked about is what can we achieve and realistically achieve. And some of the issues that some companies have is they go in there and they want to consume that chocolate cake all at once.
[:[00:22:08] Sharon: But what you're doing is you're looking at what are the opportunities that you can provide inside of your business, to First Nations people. And that's what you're looking at. So you start to build the foundations, what is it that you need to do? And the first thing that you need to look at is the cultural competency of the business.
[:[00:22:52] Sharon: I mean, you've got one for women, you've got one for, all your priority job seekers, why don't we have one for Indigenous? So you do this, and for me, a RAP is part of what your business acumen should be, and it's about being inclusive, but what it also outlines is the timeline in which you're going to do it.
[:[00:23:35] Sharon: Because it's everyone's journey and that's why it's called reconciliation. So RAP needs to be treated as a company's corporate strategy of how they're going to engage and employ and create social economic opportunities for Aboriginal people.
[:[00:24:09] Sharon: So it's a bit like, My early days, you know, as a young person working with non Indigenous people, um, and just rolling the sleeves up and, and doing the work alongside of someone, you start to change people's attitudes because they sort of go, Oh, my preconceived idea.
[:[00:24:47] Sharon: And then this is the, the, one of the advantages of working in construction is that we engage with, the traditional owners who then take the walk on our own project site to tell us. Why is this special? I mean, everywhere you build in this country is special. But This is why it's culturally significant to this particular group of people.
[:[00:25:34] Sharon: And then all of a sudden, you know, and this is the other thing with your RAP, you have a RAP working group and the company that I work in at the moment, we've got RAP working groups at not just the corporate level. There's one in each of our business units. And then the GMs and the operational managers from each of those business units attend the corporate RAP meeting and they're sharing their experiences that they've had.
[:[00:26:14] Sharon: And this is how we engage with the community. And then, then there'll be other people, other teams, well, , they'll actually pick the phone up and go, How did you do that? So what we're actually doing through this process is, , you spoke about storytelling. Well, we're allowing our GMs and, operational managers to do the storytelling, doing the show off dance, and going, well, this is what we did.
[:[00:26:59] Sharon: And then what happens is, All of a sudden, things just start to happen organically because it becomes business as usual. So, it's not new knowledge, to people. And then it's like, okay, we did that here. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. Let's take those learnings and let's take it to the next level.
[:[00:27:42] Sharon: But overall, people can't deny when they're looking at. You know, especially in construction, you're working with a bunch of engineers and they love stats. So, you throw stats up on the screen and they go, Oh, well, well, I thought we were doing better than that. And it's like, and then they do a deeper dive and realize, Oh, actually, we're not doing really well.
[:[00:28:23] Sharon: We've got a group of people who've become cultural champions who are driving this, um, and which is really important when you're working with your commercial team, and your contracts team, to make sure that we have, Indigenous businesses as part of our supply chain. Because there's, you know, and you've got to really tap in, with the decision makers, the people that will open the door.
[:[00:29:07] Trisha: So there is that process sort of built in that that would lead to both the CQ drive and the CQ strategy, that ability to shift and reflect, which is, you know, the cultural competencies, the way that I'm thinking through things. I, I want to take us to the work that you're doing now, um, in terms of the new work that you shared recently on LinkedIn about the social value collective, because to be honest, I didn't completely understand it, but it caught my attention and lifted me up with some inspiration.
[:[00:29:41] Sharon: Social value, really what we're looking at is, and this is the thing, not many people know what it is, and they think of the word value and they think, oh, it's, it's my own personal value or. Um, it's the values that I hold, but, but it's more than that. And it's a bit like what I said earlier, is that there's no point in building, and only a small, handful of people benefit, , from, The social and economic opportunities that, that are there.
[:[00:30:31] Sharon: And so how do we get more women involved on projects? How do we get more women involved, um, in the construction industry where traditionally, that hasn't been a thought. It has been a thought, but really hasn't been a thought. How do we get more women into non traditional roles? You know, suddenly looking around on a project site and seeing that there's no, Indigenous engineers.
[:[00:31:20] Sharon: And from where I sit within side of the business, you see the impact. And I know the impact of my salary back on to my family. I know the impact that it has, on me. The support that I've been able to provide my family, and the opportunities that, provides.
[:[00:31:48] Trisha: Mm hmm.
[:[00:32:24] Sharon: How does, having, a social enterprise or an Indigenous business come in and do, certain scopes of work or, you know, or what we call work packages, um, the impact that that has back onto communities. And I'll just throw around a couple of figures. And so, for example, Indigenous businesses, uh, last financial year, Contributed 16. 1 billion dollars into the Australian economy and you look at that and then that this particular report where I got this figure from, um, the Dylan Dewar Center, part of, the business school of, uh, down in Melbourne University. And they've broken it down into, the salary, how many jobs did that provide, how many Aboriginal people were employed, um, to the money that was spent on wages, through to, comparing it to other industries.
[:[00:33:48] Sharon: She said, well, that's the value of what the timber industry contributes to the Australian economy. And here we are as a collective, have a group of Aboriginal people, uh, generating this income. That's benefited by all and that's the start of what, you know, I mentioned the word, generational wealth, but this is also starting to stem into intergenerational wealth.
[:[00:34:24] Trisha: Fantastic. So, in terms of the collective, is that, is that something that you want to invite people to learn more about?
[:[00:34:48] Sharon: So, so when you look at the, the ESG model, it's not just the economic and social opportunities, but it's also how are we going to, be sustainable, and environmentally, kind and friendly as well. So, all of this comes in, into the social value collective. So, you can't just say it's just about the people.
[:[00:35:25] Trisha: Yeah. That's brilliant. We can put links to a lot of these things in the show notes, Sharon. So we can we can leave people with things to go and explore further. I want to thank you so much for your time today. It's been extremely helpful. And, I'll also put your LinkedIn connection, so that if anybody would like to connect with you, they can do that.
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