Tim Buxton - The Miles Between Losing Home and Finding It

Speaker: 00:00

I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

Trisha: 00:39

Hi there, everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and an explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a bit of a quest to discover what helps us to see things from different perspectives. Especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience the moments of awareness, the shifts in our thinking. We talk about cultural intelligence, the ability to interact well with people who are different to us, and in the last few episodes, if you've been following along, we've been focusing a bit more on the things that bring us together and help us belong, or sometimes they don't.

Trisha: 01:18

Today's guest has spent the better part of two decades finding out what it actually takes for someone to belong. Tim Buxton is the founder of You Belong, an organization that's grown from a grassroots response into a nationally recognized nonprofit, supporting people from refugee and displaced backgrounds.

Trisha: 01:39

The people who Tim and his team call Waymakers, that he's helping them to rebuild their lives here in Australia. That work started after 2014 when Tim and his family relocated to northern Iraq, and yes, that was at a rather critical time, dear listeners, and he spent three years living alongside families who'd fled from ISIS.

Trisha: 02:00

He's also, like me, a CQ Fellow, and unlike me this is where it gets highly relevant for today, he's an ultra-endurance runner. Some of you might remember that this podcast is my project from my time in the My CQ Fellows year. Well, Tim, he ran 100 miles, 100 miles through Iraqi Kurdistan from Mosul to Soran, retracing a route many of those same families once fled along.

Trisha: 02:32

So his project was very different to mine. He's gonna tell us a little bit about it. He hosts his own show called The One Percenters Performance Podcast with his coach, Mario Busch. Last week, we looked at sport and cohesion, what happens when people come together. Today, I wanna go somewhere different.

Trisha: 02:52

What sport does inside one person, what changes in someone's drive, in their sense of what they're capable of, and in the small habits they build when the body's put through something extraordinary. Tim's spent some time living that question in a fairly literal way, and underneath it all sits the thing that he's working on building, a world where more people belong.

Trisha: 03:18

We'll come back to that. But first, I want to know what 100 miles taught Tim about himself. So welcome, Tim.

Tim: 03:27

Wow. Thank you, Trisha.

Tim: 03:28

Really appreciate you having me on the podcast and, and to share with you. That was quite a generous introduction. Thank you so much

Trisha: 03:36

I, I had fun researching it. I did tell Tim, listeners, that I went down a big rabbit hole with Tim, 'cause he honestly has so many facets in that his experience. And so it was, it was quite fascinating to, to dig into the whole story behind Tim Buxton. And you're really only gonna get a little bit of it today, but dear listeners, we may come back to it another time as well, if he's willing.

Trisha: 04:00

We'll see how this one goes, eh?

Tim: 04:01

Of course, yeah.

Trisha: 04:04

Hey, Tim, you grew up cross-culturally. You-- Were you actually born in Indonesia in-

Tim: 04:09

was. Yeah, I was born in a, a city called Bandung. It's, I actually visited there last year actually, after, right after our, our retreat in Chiang Mai that we had for the CQ fellows. I ended up taking a personal detour, a little pilgrimage back to that hospital in Bandung, which is known as the, the Paris of Java.

Tim: 04:31

So it's this really culturally rich jungle city. Yeah, I was born there, but my parents shortly after I was born, went to the went to West Papua, which is Indonesian-controlled Papua. And I lived there for the first few years of my life in, in the, in the remote villages there.

Tim: 04:47

So,

Trisha: 04:48

We have had a Papua New Guinean, so on the other side of the border we've had a, a guest from Papua New Guinea before and she told us her story about growing up between cultures as well eh, because she grew up outside of PNG and then came back to PNG. So, you grew up in Indonesia to Australian parents.

Trisha: 05:10

They were both Australian, are they?

Tim: 05:11

You know, they, they were Australian at the time, but they were Br- British. They were 10 pound pounds as well. So, British heritage. But yeah,

Tim: 05:20

uh, had, had at the time become Australian.

Trisha: 05:22

So was there ever a moment you remember when you were growing up where you had a bit of an awareness of cultures and of the fact that, you know, there were different ways of seeing things or doing things? So one of those moments of awareness that maybe things shifted for you

Tim: 05:37

I think that's a great phrasing of the question because I, I would say for a long time maybe I didn't know because being s- around so many culturally diverse people felt normal. It actually, it wasn't like I was shocked at a certain age. It was like it was so normal for, for, for me. One thing I will observe growing up, so I was quite young when we came back to Australia, and I remember all of my school friends were predominantly dark-skinned or they were from other cultures.

Tim: 06:12

I gravitated towards that. And, and I think su- maybe subconsciously. I think, you know, they say the first few years of your life is really when your, your, your really your, everything is forming and, and pretty much becomes quite set. Your, I would call it your operating system of the way you operate and live in, in, in the world.

Tim: 06:31

And that was formed, you know, where I was the only white little child in a, in a jungle village. You know, my, even my brothers and sisters were away in a American boarding school. And so, they would obviously visit on weekends. But you know, for me I think I felt safe and normal around dark-skinned people, not, not the white, you know, white-skinned people.

Tim: 06:52

And so that, I think that was an interesting thing for me and al- when we were back in Australia, all my f- my parents constantly had you know, people visiting us, would have staying with us from different cultures, and a lot from Papua New Guinea or Indonesia, and we even had a Vietnamese refugee that lived with us for some time as well.

Tim: 07:11

So, maybe it was probably recognizing and realizing the shock for me was that wasn't normal for people, that they, they didn't know how to interact with people that were, were different from them was probably more the, more the shock than, than, than actually experiencing myself

Trisha: 07:28

One of our early people that we interviewed was a neuroscientist and I'll get Sarah, the editor, to put the link in the show notes. And he spoke about how those early years form our facial template, and that that facial template in our brain then influences our ability to see and recognize different faces.

Trisha: 07:50

And so we have this tendency that has- is termed own-race bias, where we more easily recognize faces that are like, usually like our own. But your facial template would've been very different to your own face. It would've been all the faces around you, so your facial template would've been really different.

Trisha: 08:09

Yeah.

Tim: 08:10

That is fascinating. I love that.

Trisha: 08:13

It is. It's, it's really fascinating. Yeah. Oh, and it just, it, it shows the difference of, you know, how we're brought up. I had a very monocultural upbringing, so mine was quite different to yours in many ways. Yes, another area that you and my are very different is that you are an endurance athlete, and I've mentioned before about your CQ Fellows project called the Iraq 100 or the Humanitarian 100.

Trisha: 08:41

And when we're s- talking 100 people, we're not talking 100 Ks, we are talking miles for those of us in Australia who are more familiar with Ks than miles. But you did that run on behalf of the displaced people to raise awareness and funding for the work that to support you belong in Australia. So tell us a little bit about how the idea came about for you and, you know, what, what started you thinking that that was a, that was a good idea for a project?

Tim: 09:12

I know, I know. It's not every, I mean, it's not every day you decide to run 100 miles, especially in a wa- in a war-torn country. The nonprofit that we started, You Belong, after years spent in Iraq and then recognizing the need here in Australia to be able to welcome and help them on this side of their journey of, of becoming what we call a waymaker refugee.

Tim: 09:36

We, we'd, we'd done regular fundraising ac- activities. One of them was an annual kind of Move to Belong, we called it, campaign, where it's kind of one of those, you know, pushup challenge where people are encouraged to move and,

Tim: 09:49

and ask for funding. And so for this year, this particular year, last year, we thought, "Well, what, what can I do that's, that's just- Kind of weaves in the story and tells the story of it's not just a fun thing to do, but it really has a- an additional meaning to it.

Tim: 10:08

And so I thought, "Well, why don't I retrace that journey?"

Tim: 10:11

My Move to Belong Challenge could be the actual journey of, of a refugee, and not just here in Australia. Why don't... You know, for me it was, it had been several years, you know, seven, eight years since I'd been back, and it was almost it was time for me to return as well personally, and we even called this kind of, we, we brought a film crew as well to kind of film the journey. Wanted to capture the experience and capture the place and share, share this journey with people to de- hopefully demystify,

Tim: 10:43

The, the... a lot of the, the perceptions, and most of them are negative connotations and perceptions about a place like Iraq.

Tim: 10:52

And to, to really do justice to, to that and, and not in any way to, say, trivialize their journey with my you know, 100-mile run. But for it to be, I, I would call, like, a, a little window of opportunity to, to, to really highlight their courage that which they did without training, without, without any of the luxuries that I was afforded on the run and, and to be able to, you know, really bring that meaning home for everyone at here in Australia that was participating in that, that same kind of fundraising campaign.

Tim: 11:25

So yeah, we got a, a few eager key people together. I had a running coach, Mario, who joined me on the, on the trip and made sure we were all safe and were gonna be able to get to the finish line no matter how hard it was gonna be. yeah, it just turned out that the 100 miles, which in, in ultra-running world, 100, which, which they call a miler, is, like, a really well-known established distance.

Tim: 11:51

It's kind of like, the, the marathon kind of distance. It's like this... It's really well-known. And it just so happened to be the distance between where we lived in Iraq, which was where many of the families came to for refuge and, and where they fled in Mosul, which was the city that ISIS had captured when they, when they came across the border from Syria.

Trisha: 12:11

Right. So for many of them, that was the distance that they moved

Tim: 12:14

it was, yeah

Trisha: 12:16

Yeah. I have listened to your podcast show, The One Percenters where Mario, your coach that you just referred to as your co-host, and he, I think it was him who raised it at one point, talking about simulating suffering in the training so that you'd have a mental framework to fall back on mid-run because it was hot.

Trisha: 12:37

You know, you're not just running those long distances, but you're running it in extreme heat, you know? So was there a moment out there in, on that miler where that framework, the mental framework held from the training that you'd done? And maybe there was another moment when it, where it didn't, and so something like a, a shift happened instead w- that, you know, that training couldn't prepare you for

Tim: 13:04

Yeah.

Tim: 13:05

I, I would both, yes. I would have to say that for anyone that's done an ultra-marathon, and even if you've run a marathon or maybe you just get into running and you're pushing your distance and you're running a distance you'd never run before, you're gonna get to a point where you, like, you start to question, "Actually, I don't know I can do this," or, "This is, this is..."

Tim: 13:32

Um, And, and yet generally, no matter how many you've done you cannot, you cannot predict when it's gonna happen. You don't... It could be, it could be you know, you get a pebble in your shoe, and then suddenly you've got a blister, and, and that's something you didn't plan. Or, or your, your tummy's upset, from something or, or there's a tweak in your knee or...

Tim: 13:54

Th- there's so many things that, that can happen over, especially over a long period of time, that you just can't prepare yourself for. So that's where the mental, that's where the mental training comes in. The physical preparation, the simulating suffering from a physical point of view even i- you know, he was, Mario was very, he, he coaches dozens of elite athletes, so he's been around the bush. Done 25 of, of these kinds of runs himself. So he, he definitely, in the training and the preparation, made sure that whether it was, you know, hills, hill running and making sure I was prepared for the, the, the part of the journey.

Tim: 14:31

We, we, we ran across three mountain ranges. The temperature was, was at least 45 degrees Celsius. But real feel when you're running in some of the places we were on the highway with trucks, you know, coming past and the heat bouncing off, it was, would've been over 50 degrees real feel C- Celsius. And a lot of that you couldn't simulate.

Tim: 14:53

And in particular, and, and to give you an example, day one, which the first day, we, we spread this over f- over, over four days, so it was what we call a sta- staged ultra-marathon. And the first day after the 30-kilometer mark, suddenly I had to I had to just go to the bathroom and started throwing up as well, and I just lost all my fluid.

Tim: 15:20

And it was getting towards the h- hot- hotter part of the day. We started really early in the morning, and Mario's just like, "Just gotta keep moving. Just keep moving." And we're trying to keep moving. We're trying to cool the body down. The body was starting to overheat, and I just remember getting to a point where I was starting to...

Tim: 15:37

I couldn't see. I, I was blurry. I was delirious. You know, when you kind of feel like you're gonna go out of consciousness. The ambulance was there following us, you know, that w- 'cause we're running on this major busy highway, and they're like, the paramedics are, like, coming out saying, "We've gotta take him to the hospital.

Tim: 15:54

This is not good. We need to get IVs into him." and I just remember that, you know, I, my body hadn't been able to adapt or prepare itself for this kind of suffering. All the other kinds of you know, kind of preparation was, was obviously holding, holding true. But the body overheating and trying to get it cooled down I just remember thinking about there was this young boy that I was gonna interview.

Tim: 16:20

He was, he was actually a young man now, but one of the boys from the camps who I was gonna meet later on and see where he'd d- gone in life, and he'd actually had this incredible journey. And I just knew I had to get to the end to, to talk to him, and I reminded myself of what he and his family had to endure.

Tim: 16:38

They were trapped on a mountain in, in Sinjar where genocide took place, and they, they-- their experience, and I started to think what they went through, and I just remember suddenly at some point the mind was able to tell the body, "You can do this. Just keep going." And, you know, it wasn't fast but we just kept moving and kept going and and, you know, there's, you know, there w- there was, there was a lot of excruciating pain, cramping all over points of my body.

Tim: 17:09

But to get to the end that, that that I think, you know, that, that shift really did, did take place, especially when I got to the end after realizing if I can push through that moment where I thought at the beginning of this, event, I thought, "I've just failed everyone. I'm not even gonna make it past day one."

Tim: 17:27

To be able to push through, I think the shift happened, and interestingly enough, for the rest of the, the ultramarathon, my times each day were getting faster and faster. Even as we went into the mountains and were going up, you know, you know, 1,000 meters elevation and, and down, like the body suddenly clicked in and it, it...

Tim: 17:47

I call it there's what we call cognitive memory, right? That neuroscience talks about what's happened in the brain. But then there's somatic memory. There's memory that our body has and holds and can says, "You know what? This is what we're doing."

Tim: 18:01

And the body can, I, I think, communicate through cellular ways that, that we know how to accomplish this, and it-- my body took a beating.

Tim: 18:09

I was pissing blood on day three and four, and that, that was a whole 'nother kettle of, of challenges with my, my liver and, and kidneys and different things. No, sorry, my kidneys, not my liver. But but the body is just phenomenal. So yeah. So that, that's kind of, I guess, hopefully answered both ends of where

Tim: 18:26

it, it, the shift can happen

Trisha: 18:29

And I'm, I'm curious about that somatic aspect and about what it taught you. I mean, I think I haven't known you for years, but I've been reading about what you've been doing. You always seemed to be somebody who had empathy and cared for the people. Do you think the run changed or deepened that from a somatic perspective?

Trisha: 18:50

'Cause you were really experiencing, you know, in your body much closer to what they had experienced. Is that anything valid?

Tim: 19:00

I've... Look, I would like to... Yes, in, in a way I was, you know, even as I, I, after day one, I went straight into this interview, and I was depleted and exhausted with this young boy. And I can remember, I couldn't hold back the tears, one, just seeing him, but then just also, I think like you said having experienced in my own version, and I would never try to compare or com- to, to what they had to endure. But, but yeah, I think in a way there was maybe another level of, of now I, now I can, now I see a little bit clearer what you, what you were able to endure and what your body... I mean, peop- they say of people, you know, they can do superhuman feats when the adrenaline kicks in. Suddenly they can lift a car, or they can, they can run faster and for longer distance.

Tim: 19:58

There's, there's things that the body is able to do when it, when it has to or needs to. I mean, I mean, just thinking of my own wife giving birth to four children, and I just, witnessing the superhuman ability that, that we see all around us. And, and I think, yeah like there was probably another level of empathy that, that that exists.

Tim: 20:23

And even to this day, like I don't in, don't like... I, I love what ultra running and I still run to this day regularly. Went for a nice early morning run this morning with a friend. But it's not like I, I'm like I ultra runner, like is for me, like this sport that is just like, I wanna have this love for, but I, it, it, there's something so powerful and special when I do do it that I don't think anything else can really give me, you know?

Tim: 20:54

Or that I've, that I know of. So, yeah, there is something to be said for that.

Trisha: 20:59

You've referenced a couple of times how your experience was, you know, very real. And at the same time, it doesn't really compare at all to the challenges that the people who went through it during that time. And I was thinking about, you know, the Yazidi people who were without food and water on that mountainside for quite some time because they were kept there.

Tim: 21:23

They were yeah

Trisha: 21:24

and no choice. And I guess, you know, it, it feels like you've, expressed some discomfort with that comparison. how did that feel as you went through with your, with your crew and with, you know, Mario who were there to help you? How did that comparison feel?

Tim: 21:42

yeah, we, we were constantly faced with this challenge, especially as we were filming and sharing on social media, and we were fundraising, you know, and we wanted... You know, there w- again, there were times where I think people are inspired. Well, if Tim's willing to, to do this and to, to open up and, and by doing, by being like I, I wanted to be the bridge, right?

Tim: 22:03

That connected them. So for so many s- so many people and so many of us right here in Australia, we watch the news, and we can't empathize, and we can't really relate, and we become desensitized. And so my, I really wanted it to be my job where I knew where there needed to be another, a bridge to help us to be able to connect with their experience in a real way.

Tim: 22:27

And if I could be that bridge and, and say, "And they could be really interested because look what Tim's doing," and then suddenly that enables them to draw in and spend a bit more time reflecting on their plight and their journey and and in, in, in light of the same way that they would be like, "That's amazing.

Tim: 22:45

That's courageous. That's fantastic." R- rather than this li- I think quite often narrative that's painted of, of refugees of either they're just people to be pitied, or they're, you know, i- in, in many ways, they're less than,

Trisha: 23:00

Yeah

Tim: 23:01

And, and so, so that, that was really im- important for me, but there was a tension where I didn't want to even conflate or ex- exaggerate my own experiences, even though like, like I said, I was, I was peeing blood.

Tim: 23:17

Like, I was, I was, you know, like it was, it was grueling in so many ways. And I couldn't, had, didn't know how else to explain how the heat and, and the, and everything that we were going through really was. But it was, it was a hard task. A- a- and f- and we, we really wanted to make sure we were m- you know, walking that fine balance so that, yeah, it didn't kind of try to glorify me but really shone the light on, on them and, and, and, you know, their courage as waymakers.

Trisha: 23:53

uplifted them in what they had been through. Yeah.

Tim: 23:56

I think, I think, too, to add to that, it's a really important thing we need to do is to, is to not be afraid and I need to realize this, not be afraid to invite people in to other people's suffering. And yes, we, we don't wanna compare, but at the same time, we need to learn to walk in each other's shoes a little bit, and that's where we don't need to say, "Oh, I know what it's like to be a refugee now.

Tim: 24:26

I know what it's like to be you and your suffering." we never will. Everyone's suffering is always their own, and their experience is their own, and, and we don't do them a service to let them, you know, let it be their own. But I think we do ourselves more disservice if we don't take the effort to, well, let, let me, let me ex...

Tim: 24:46

Help me understand more of your suffering and what it was like, and, and relate it to our own experiences. And it's like I often say with this idea of displacement and belonging is, it's like, yes, we might not know what it's like to lose our home, but maybe we've lost our home where we were forced to move from one state to another, and we lost all our friends, and we had to start a new school, and we didn't know what it felt like to belong, and that feeling was so intense and so real and depressing.

Tim: 25:14

And that's something to be like, remind yourself of what that felt like a- and, and then you can have more empathy again for, for others that have, you know, may be suffering, you know, a lot, lot more intensely. But but that feeling and that emotion and that is still th- in many ways the same and makes us really come together, doesn't it?

Tim: 25:36

And, and, and in humanity

Trisha: 25:39

Yes. And to feel like that we have these things in common, and therefore we can relate to each other. Yeah.

Tim: 25:45

Yes

Trisha: 25:47

Yeah. When I'm as you know, coaching and training people in cultural intelligence often, and I know that you speak you're often on a big stage speaking to people about these aspects, especially leaders.

Trisha: 25:59

And one of the things that, you know, especially from a coaching perspective, I'm often unpacking how to... helping people to recognize what is motivating them, because that's a really important part of CQ Drive. And one of the mechanisms that we sometimes use is unpacking that why, and it might be the things that you spoke about just then, identifying and understanding somebody else's suffering.

Trisha: 26:22

Y- you've spoken about it being important to unpack your why to achieve physical goals as well, so like an ultra-marathon, to ask yourself why you actually want to do it, because I guess when you're out there in the middle of it, you probably question whether you really do want to do it.

Tim: 26:40

A hundred percent.

Trisha: 26:41

yeah.

Trisha: 26:43

And you've also spoken about making sure that it aligns with your personal values, and to make sure that, you know, the values that you hold generally support what you're doing, which is exactly what you were just exemplifying with your own experience there.

Trisha: 26:59

H- Have you ever had a moment where you had to check in on your why you know, or, or your values, and realize that drive had slipped, you know, in, in different situations?

Tim: 27:10

I mean, I, I think I'd like to say yes and, and all the time. I think, I think more so than ever especially when we're we're stressed, when we're going through transition and change you know, our motivations can go to survival rather than, than, than that place where we're healthy and, and, and wanna thrive and be our best self.

Tim: 27:32

And I think you know, I would be lying to say that, you know, I've not felt like many people over the last few years the weight and the stresses of, of, of you know, the e- the economy or, or l- you know, l- and he- here I sound like first world problems complaining here from Australia. But I think you know, we all, we all go through seasons of life even, you know, in my m- my mid-40s.

Tim: 27:57

The, the, that career, life, you know, the challenges of leading a nonprofit that's struggling to, you know, and all of those things, and providing for family, the living expenses of four young kids, and being torn in so many different ways. Those-- Y- you constantly have to realize, well, what, what is my, what are my n- what do I need to do in this season of my life?

Tim: 28:20

What's important? And sometimes those, those whys of, like, my, you know, my passion and what's my drive, my personal vision for my life has to surrender to, well, I'm a dad now with kids that are going into high school, and I need to let them take the steering wheel. They've been-- I've dragged them around the world on my adventures and, and you've, you've-- I'm sure you've experienced this, you know, raising your own kids.

Tim: 28:45

And so I've had to think, you know, like, I've got to lay some of those things down to, to, like, you know, let them have the steering wheel, and they're gonna take me on their adventures. And, and my why can turn into, like, well, I've got to make sure I'm present more and I'm, I'm not just, you know, I'm more of a provider financially or in different ways so that we can achieve those things for them.

Tim: 29:10

Whereas I'd be just as easily just, you know, let's just figure out, let's go over this part of the world, and we'll just, you know, sort it all out and have the adventure of our lifetime. And so there's there's a constant, I think, recalibration of and I think it's being compassionate and kind to yourself 'cause sometimes we think, "I'm not achieving this trajectory of my life and what I would deem successful and how the world might look at me.

Tim: 29:33

I didn't quite get there." But mate, I'm realizing I've got this incredible investment in front of me that I can launch them into their stratosphere, and I've gotta be okay with, with playing a different role while still having a bit of my own adventure and fun at the same time.

Tim: 29:50

So, I hope that kind of makes sense for you at all.

Trisha: 29:54

Absolutely. It really aligns with a number of aspects. You know, it's that self-compassion as well. I mean, you're talking about compassion for others, but also being kind to yourself and going... Because sometimes I think when we're younger, we have this image of what we might achieve and then, you know, maybe that shifts because of our life, our experiences the joy of having children, as you say.

Trisha: 30:20

And so, you know, having the self-compassion to say, "Actually, that's not my why anymore, but now it's another one." So I think, yeah, it's, it's powerful to rethink and to let go of some things sometimes. Yeah, I think

Trisha: 30:36

the the self-criticism aspect that can come in if we don't let go of that, you know, "Oh, you haven't done this," or, "You haven't done that," you know, I think that that can be quite harsh.

Trisha: 30:48

And especially I think social media can put pressures on people to add to that as well, so yeah

Tim: 30:55

Yeah to, and to build onto what you're saying, I think you're spot on. Like, I think the world we now live in, there is this like, "Well, you should be successful." And you've got so many people to compare yourself, and if you're watching everyone's highlight reels constantly, and then you look at your life, and you're not, you know, your podcast isn't the number one on, on whatever, or, or blah, blah, you know, whatever you, you kind of might be tempted to, to kind of be drawn into.

Tim: 31:23

And the reality is, I think, for me, the real most important thing, and this is, again, these are my values, what are important to me, but I think they ground me, and they make me feel a lot better about myself and a better... Is when I realize, well, who are the most important people in my life? You know, my relationships.

Tim: 31:43

Who are the ones that really matter what they think about me? Like, I wanna be famous with my family, not necessarily famous with a whole bunch of people who don't really know me and, and maybe have done a, a few great exploits or seem to be successful and achieve things in different ways. And so when I'm ticking those boxes, everything else just becomes the cherry on the cake, right?

Tim: 32:05

So I think, I think that's where coming back to my why and evaluating you know, am I in a good place? Am I doing things for the right reason? Is my drive, and I think from a cultural intelligence perspective, is my drive to connect and create meaningful relationships and effective, whether it be in, in the workplace or, or, or in whatever, because of a genuine desire to, to really create that belonging and, and, and create that collective team success?

Tim: 32:34

Or is it, is it guided by my own personal, like, I can manipulate and get my way agenda? That, that can really be where you, you kind of need to you know, check in with yourself, I think.

Trisha: 32:46

Another aspect of that CQ Drive is self-efficacy and it's confidence that comes from, you know, that knowing we can do what we need to do. And sometimes when we're thinking about working cross-culturally, it might be thinking about the culture that we're dealing with, where we're confident in dealing with that.

Trisha: 33:07

And I know there's a little bit of you know, sort of underlying limitations to that, so that sometimes it doesn't generalize to different cultures, so that some people might have lots of confidence in dealing in one area, but not so confident in dealing with another, you know, or one group of people and not another.

Trisha: 33:25

I was in a webinar this morning, and somebody was speaking about how challenging they found it to work with people who are neurodiverse. So, you know, I realize that, that self-efficacy doesn't always generalize. But I know from the, the work around self-efficacy began with Albert Bandura, and one of the things he did mention was about extraordinary experiences and how sometimes self-efficacy, confidence in that sense, can generalize from having an extraordinary experience.

Trisha: 33:58

And if there's ever any extraordinary experience, I feel like you've had it there, you know? So so like I'm wondering if if your achieving that amazing physical goal helped you to feel more confident as you stepped up to other situations or as you were, you know, relating with people who are different to you, or you had other big goals that you had set yourself.

Trisha: 34:24

Did you notice anything after you achieved that and completed that challenge that you felt more confident in any other areas?

Tim: 34:35

Wow. As you were, as you were talking, I, I, I kept thinking about how really I had a, quite a big low actually after my ultramarathon. Like, it was one of those things where m- I'd put my body through the wringer.

Trisha: 34:50

Right.

Tim: 34:50

I was exhausted. I was ... I mean, all the planning and preparation to get there, and I think this can be a lot of experience for a lot of people that, you know, they-- people say they won a Grammy Award, right?

Tim: 35:02

They got this crowning achievement, and the next day they're like, "It was the worst day of my life." I even saw a, a, a, a recent world champion surfer who just got the, you know, become the world champion surfer, John John Florence, saying, you know, this is a dream he'd lived his whole life for, and he finally got to it, and then his experience was like like it just was really, he was really flat and depressed afterwards.

Tim: 35:27

But what it taught him, and I think this is the lesson I've really, after a few couple months, asked Mario, I didn't wanna run for a while. What it taught me was it's the process that matters. It's not the actual crowning achievement. Now, we need the goal. You need something big and audacious to go after.

Tim: 35:47

I, I'm, I'm all for that. But it is in the journey, it's in the process that is where the true treasure lies. And I think, I think for me, whatever then I have to put my mind to next, and I've actually gone through quite a significant career pivot in that, like I've, I've handed over the reins of my nonprofit to a general manager.

Tim: 36:12

I'm chair of board. Like I'm still quite volunteering quite a fair bit in doing that. But I've gone into consulting work and into a whole different field of work to try and bring in finances and income, and it wouldn't have been a, an area, it's in finance now, wouldn't have been an area I would ever navigate or be involved in.

Tim: 36:33

I mean, I end up doing, you know, a diploma in, in finance recently, and I'm learning stuff and like, trust me, I'm just not the guy you think's gonna walk into ... I mean, I did live in New York and have to work in a, in a kind of high culture, you know, executive environment, but, but not in this landscape. And I think what it's taught me is there's, is, is, is times where I felt like I am in the wrong place.

Tim: 36:58

This is really, like this is gonna be really hard. It's like, no, you know what? Just,

Tim: 37:03

just, it's like training. It's like, just go one day at a time, check the next box off,, you know? And it doesn't always have, you know, it's not always gonna look ... I mean, thinking of my training and preparation, it, there's things you, you, you don't think are really having a big impact, but compounded over time,

Tim: 37:22

You can achieve great things.

Tim: 37:24

So, so I think that's what I would, would take away because there wasn't this immediate sense of like, "Yes, well, I can do that. What's the next big thing?" it, it, it was more a, a like now I understand what it takes

Tim: 37:37

To, eat the elephant, right? One bite at a time. And if you can embrace the journey as the actually the most, and be present in that rather than just, then you, then you don't hate so much the journey, right?

Tim: 37:52

Which is annoying 'cause that's the mo- that's 90% of the, of what you're doing. If you only love the, the, the, the 5% at the end or 10% at the end, then you're missing, you know, the, the real juice of life, right? And what we're doing. So, yeah. That's, that's probably how I'd kinda say I felt that

Trisha: 38:11

I

Tim: 38:11

kind of,

Trisha: 38:12

that. And I loved your whole podcast is about the 1% and Mario talks about it as little habits that we build that support high performance. I love that whole idea, and you just brought that out then. And it got me thinking about how it maps onto cultural intelligence, and I just- I'm curious, and I'd love to throw this to other people as well, but what do you think are the little habits that we could build that support us, you know, as we work and relate with different people?

Trisha: 38:43

What are the little things? Not the big things, but maybe just tiny things that make a difference.

Tim: 38:49

I am, I'm a big fan ... Well, as a little kid, I was always known as Where's Timothy? Like, where is this, where's Tim? I was getting lost all the time. The amount of times I'd get lost in a shopping mall and they'd, they'd have to take me and do the announcement over the thing, like at the shopping center, "Tim, we found him.

Tim: 39:10

He's at the admin office here. Oh, there he is." You know, even, you know, wandering I even remember jumping my like s- you know, six feet high fence with my little tricycle at like, must have been three or four years old, and going three, you know, couple of kilometers up, up the road to the local butcher's where I would g- they'd always give me a free piece of, you know,

Tim: 39:32

um, yeah, meat.

Tim: 39:34

Fritz it was at the time in South Austra- Like, like doing thin- crazy things like that. And for me, you know, I call it the philosophy of getting lost. And wherever possible take, take, go down that dark alley. Don't, don't follow the crowd. Don't f- don't just go to the big, you know, if you're going to visit a city or you're going, like, don't just tick off the big items, you know?

Tim: 39:57

Find the hole in the wall shop. Just try it. Like, like if it's, even if it just doesn't look like it'd be something you'd wanna do, or I often quite do if I'm at a restaurant, I'd just be tell the waitress, it's like, "You decide for me. Like, just whatever you want." It saves me like sitting there for another five minutes like wondering if I've made the right decision.

Tim: 40:21

At least I can blame them if I don't like it instead of feeling I've done ... So those little habits of like ... And, and what I find along the way is you find and discover

Tim: 40:30

things you never thought you'd love, and you're like, "I would've known this had I, if I just kept doing the predictable blah," you know, follow the thing.

Tim: 40:39

Or find the thing, you know, actually don't even like that. I just do it because that's what I do, and I didn't realize that I didn't actually enjoy it or didn't like it that much. And, and like how great, you know? I've got rid of those things. So I, I would say in, in that respect, those are, those, that's be a little habit, a couple of little habits that I would encourage people to do

Trisha: 41:01

Yeah, I love that one I have sometimes been referred to as have a chat. And so I am inclined to say hello and strike up conversations with people that, you know, just sitting at the next table or sitting beside me on the train or... And so I think that might be one of my one percenters, 'cause often they're the people that I learn so much from that, you know, it, it n- never occurred to me that somebody would think that, but here's somebody who's just said that, so it now occurs to me that somebody will think that, you know?

Trisha: 41:34

So, how it just expands your thinking. So yeah it's, yeah, I, I appreciate all the conversations that you can have with complete strangers in different situations. I know that's a cultural thing, and that Aussies and Kiwis do that often, and that some other cultures don't do that. But yeah, I think it's, it's helpful for me.

Trisha: 41:53

Yeah.

Tim: 41:55

Yeah. And, but I think what, what you, what you s- what you've highlighted is it, it doesn't take a huge gesture or a huge, like I've got to come up with a huge conversation. Sometimes it's

Tim: 42:07

just one little comment, one little smile instead of just like, you know, and then it gives them the opportunity to, to...

Tim: 42:16

And you, like you said, you just suddenly you're like, you find yourself down this wonderful,

Trisha: 42:21

Yeah.

Tim: 42:22

you know, journey.

Tim: 42:23

Yeah

Trisha: 42:24

Next minute you're a team. You're rolling your eyes 'cause neither of you understand what, what the announcement just was on the train. Um, And next minute you're sharing something completely different. Yeah.

Tim: 42:34

100%. Oh, so good. Yeah. But all of these things, I mean, even if you, if it, your, that's your proclivity to a bit more outgoing, it doesn't mean it's not stretching when you, every time you do it. Like, it's still, it's, it still requires, and I think cultural intelligence in general, a- any skill or whether it always requires you stretching and pushing yourself you just get better at it the more you do it.

Tim: 43:03

Um, or they just become habits, right? Where it's, you don't think so much, you just, you just suddenly, you do it. Just like you, the habit of saying please and thank you get drummed into you at a

Trisha: 43:14

Yes. Get

Tim: 43:16

Suddenly you just do it.

Trisha: 43:17

Drummed into Kiwis and Aussies, yes. Not, not Chinese as I learned when we lived there. Yeah. So, I'm interested in what you're doing now in terms of what's coming up for you in thinking about the future. And so I just wanted to give you a chance to sort of say about that because I know that you've, you've got big goals again,

Tim: 43:41

Yeah, so I mean, obviously taken a different role in my nonprofit, but that's still such a huge part. I'd love to see that grow. And sometimes r- for me re- recognizing I might be the thing in the way of growth, right? Me in, in a certain role and a position, and I've, I've so grateful of this incredible small but powerful team of women that are really driving You Belong's growth into the next season of its existence.

Tim: 44:07

I still wanna do all I can to he- help with fundraising and, and lead it strategically into different ways and support them. And one of the ways I, I wanna continue my own personal projects that hopefully will, will, will, will amplify the, the mission of You Belong is this I- Iraq 100 run that I did do is we've turned it into a what we call an Ultra Odyssey.

Tim: 44:31

So, so there's a website now where it's called ultraodyssey.com, and we wanna take other people on what we've now coined a 200-kilometer journey. So it's a little bit longer than the 100 miles, which is about 168 kilometers or 62, I think, technically. But it's taking a, a, a four-day experience, you know, 50 kilometers essentially a day, running the, running through this incredibly rich culturally the oldest city in the world continuously inhabited city in the world, Erbil, to the mountains that are straddling along near the border with Iran and Turkey and, and you know, an incredible experience that we wanna take 12 you know, ultra runners on next year and, and kind of build that as an experience.

Tim: 45:17

Hopefully make a little bit of money that can then really go in and and be something that supports the work going forward in that way. So that's a, that's something that's you know, kind of ca- come out of, of that initial run. And then, yeah, just obviously I've, I'm, I'm You know, living my life to make the most of this season I've got with my four kids.

Tim: 45:42

There are in, two in high school and two in primary school, and how I can support them in their various you know, ambitions in life. And my wife, who I should say is my hero, you know, who did incredible things h- herself in, you know, even before I met her, she lived in an army, Russian army tent in the middle of South Africa working with AIDS orphans, and she raised our ch- young children while we were overseas and started a preschool, and now works in, in a lot of in, in schools here in Australia as a aid, teacher's aide supporting especially those with learning difficulties.

Tim: 46:19

I mean, she's, yeah, it's time too to, to kinda champion her, her vision and, and goals in life as well. So it's kept us a little bit more planted here in Australia, but we'll see where, who knows what, know, where, where it might take us

Trisha: 46:35

Fantastic. I love that who knows and the openness to the future. We will have the link to, you know, just in case there's someone listening who wants to put their hand up for

Tim: 46:44

Yeah

Trisha: 46:45

200K through mountainous regions. We will, yeah, please, please reach out. It

Tim: 46:53

There's some crazy person out there, I'm

Tim: 46:55

sure, that's just, it, it'll appeal

Tim: 46:56

to.

Trisha: 47:01

Hey, what advice would you give someone who wants to follow your example and I'm thinking about the example not of necessarily running long distance, but making a significant difference in the lives of people

Tim: 47:14

I'm terrible. I sh- I, I try and make it a, a pattern not to give advice, but to remind... I, I would say I wanna remind people of what they already know, 'cause I don't think I'm really sharing anything, I'd be sharing anything new. And I think I wanna remind people that you know deep down, it actually really is a beautiful world.

Tim: 47:40

There's really great people out there, and yes, we get hurt, we feel betrayed, we can watch the news, and we just think it's all fallen apart, and there really is great suffering. But it's easy to become cynical when we live there. It's easy to become not trust people anymore. And my message really would be deep down, you know, deep down you- you're, you're a good person.

Tim: 48:06

Like, you, you deep down just want the best for your children and, and for your family and, and, you know, even the hurt, whatever you're carrying or whatever has happened to you, deep down if we can find and look for the best in others and, and trust again and I think then we will see that trust emanate back to us.

Tim: 48:29

I, I would liken it to when I go to the checkout counter at, at you know, Woolworths or somewhere and, and I smile at them, and I s- Like, often, you know, that's reciprocated right back. Or I've, I've done this experiment where I've been at a café and I've had, need to use the bathroom, and I just didn't wanna lose my seat and my...

Tim: 48:50

So I left my laptop, and I said to the person, "Can you just keep an eye on my laptop? I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I, I, I'm, I'm sitting there. I didn't wanna lose my seat." To trust somebody,

Tim: 49:00

you know? They will then live up to that trust. Whereas if we assume people are gonna steal and assume the negative, there's a good chance maybe, you know, that, that they'll, you know, that will, you know, not...

Tim: 49:14

There's not a good chance that that will happen, but I think we, we tend to find what we're ultimately looking for in that sense. And, and the reality is, you know, so I'd just say my advice might, might remind people of, you know, we don't, you know, don't get cynical. No matter how bad it gets stay, stay hopeful and positive in the world that we do live in.

Tim: 49:36

It's a beautiful, friendly, beau- ma- a magical world out there

Trisha: 49:40

I love that. And I think I, I share that hope for the world too. Thank you so much, Tim. I really appreciate it. All of the things that you've shared. We will be putting connections for Tim into the show notes, people, and you can follow up, connect with him as well, and learn more about what he's doing.

Tim: 50:00

Thanks, Trisha. What a joy

Trisha: 50:02

It's been, it's been really great. And dear listeners, before I let you go, I want to come back to something I asked you a couple of episodes ago when we opened the series on sport. I asked you for some moments that might have shifted you, and for you to give us voice notes. So I was interested in a sporting moment that shifted you, and maybe a sporting moment that told you you didn't belong.

Trisha: 50:25

So I'd still love to hear your voice messages. If you haven't sent them yet, please do. If you already have, you don't need to send it again. We'll take care of it. But today, listening to Tim, I do want to add another question. Tim talked about, you know, his massive achievement of 100 miles through Iraq and his capability.

Trisha: 50:46

So what I want to know from you all is how did you respond to a massive challenge that you might have done? And it might have been a sporting one, maybe it wasn't. But did it change how capable you felt, or, you know, did you sort of have a big downer afterwards? So I'm interested in your response to having done something and pushed yourself in a really big way.

Trisha: 51:09

So yeah, I'm, I'm keen to learn from your, all your experiences, and we will pull the voice notes together as we did for the music episode. And if you're one of my practitioner listeners, the coaches and the facilitators among you, have you ever used a physical or endurance challenge deliberately as a tool to build someone's confidence?

Trisha: 51:32

I've never done that, but I'm wondering, you know, would that be a thing that, that other people have done, you know, who, who aren't necessarily working in the physical area? So what did you set people, and how did it work? So you can send a voice note via email. There will be an email address in the show notes.

Trisha: 51:49

Sarah, my editor, will be keeping an eye on that one, or you can message me on LinkedIn, and I'll send you my WhatsApp number, and you can message me on WhatsApp. And we'll look forward to hearing everyone's stories side by side in a future episode. So thank you, Tim, and thank you everyone for being part of The Shift today.

Trisha: 52:08

If today's conversation with Tim resonated, share it with someone. Might be someone who's pushed their body somewhere hard and found out something about themselves on the other side. Please make sure you've followed or subscribed in the podcast app, and I'll see you next time on The Shift