Episode 59
Andrew Sykes - Building Trust, Floor by Floor
In this episode, Trisha interviews Andrew Sykes, author, speaker, and founder of Habits at Work, who brings the science of behavioural change into business performance. Andrew is a lecturer at the Kellogg School of Management, where he helps leaders build trustworthy organisations.
Drawing from his powerful personal shift during the 1995 Rugby World Cup in South Africa, Andrew explores how trust is built "floor by floor" like a skyscraper. The conversation delves into why trust often breaks down in diverse teams and how cultural intelligence intersects with trust-building.
Andrew reveals practical strategies for building trust through intentional habits, especially when working across cultural differences. He shares insights on why demonstrating curiosity and care can transcend cultural barriers and how organisations can systematically embed trustworthy practices into their culture.
Connect with Andrew via LinkedIn, his website, the Habits at Work website, and the website for executive experiences Cerene Life .
Make sure you join Trisha in this journey of growth and discovery throughout the year via Substack or LinkedIn.
Transcript
[00:00:14]
[:[00:01:00] The shifts in our thinking.
[:[00:01:18] podcast, we focus on CQ strategy and how our thinking is critical to building our cultural intelligence.
[:[00:01:43] he brings the science of behavioral change into the heart of business performance. Andrew's a lecturer at the Kellogg School of Management where he helps leaders build what he calls trustworthy organizations.
[:[00:02:20] Hanlie was a co-author with Andrew in the book, the 11th Habit, which I'm hoping will come up in our discussion. And Andrew was
[:[00:02:45] So how trust is formed, how it can be broken, and how it can be rebuilt. And Andrew brings a beautiful practical lens to this habits that build trust floor by floor. I'm really looking forward to talking about this. Welcome, Andrew.
[:[00:03:09] Trisha: Ooh.
[:[00:03:11] from the perspective of your knowledge and your skillset.
[:[00:03:31] Andrew: So many, but at the top of my list is the Brazilian culture. I lived there in 2012 for a year, and I've worked. In Brazil, mainly in Sao Paulo for a decade or more. And I love the warmth, the energy, and the contrast with how I grew up and the similarity. So it's a beautiful example of how joy can infuse its way into everything in life.
[:[00:04:05] Trisha: I love the thought of joy infusing a culture. And I've never visited Brazil, so now I want to,
[:[00:04:14] Tell 'em I say hi. I'll be back soon.
[:[00:04:18] Anybody in Brazil who would like Andrew and I to be there, just give us a shout.
[:[00:04:26] Trisha: Indeed. So, Andrew, can you tell me about a time when you might've experienced a shift you and you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?
[:[00:04:52] Now the backstory is I grew up in South Africa, perhaps the most systematically racist in country in the time the seventies, eighties, and nineties when I was growing up.
[:[00:05:29] I didn't know they were there. We never saw each other. We lived completely different lives and that infuses a racism. Like the only honest thing I can say is I was born a racist because of who we are. Is a function of our habits, and if our habits are encoded in the world around us, that must be true. But it never occurred to me that's what I was or how I thought. But in that World Cup, which Nelson Mandela had supported with his whole heart, despite the fact that everyone said he shouldn't, South Africa was victorious. It was an awesome day. I'll spare you the details, but I was so overwhelmed. That I sat down in a stadium and I saw for the first time in my life, black men and white men hugging, sharing tears of joy as we celebrated our nation's victory together.
[:[00:07:09] Well, I'm working on all of those, but you know, why can't we all love each other? We're just the same silly human beings underneath all of these facades and differences.
[:[00:07:29] Andrew: You didn't, but that's awesome news because if there's one country I love 'cause of our common love for rugby, it's Kiwis and New Zealand.
[:[00:07:57] Andrew: Yes, both of them.
[:[00:08:13] And so it is something that I was very aware of.
[:[00:08:22] But yeah
[:[00:08:33] And now that Andrew has shared his shift, I think that will make that movie even more special to you.
[:[00:08:41] Trisha: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. I think part of that shift, there are elements like you say of love.
[:[00:09:08] Could you work us through what that means in terms of a team or leadership context?
[:[00:09:51] If you signal that you're trustworthy, but you're not actually, so you'd be described as a con person, but if you are actually trustworthy but don't have the skills of signaling that you are, you may never get the chance to show that you are. So, there's so much that we, that I didn't know about how much trust is built between people in the milliseconds to minutes when we first meet.
[:[00:10:34] All of that is best said in that old saying, you never get a second chance to create a fantastic or high trust first impression.
[:[00:11:03] Identity, trust formed in the first five minutes, usually
[:[00:11:27] And I believe all three of those are necessary, all of them layer on top of each other like flaws. And as Kevin Plank said in a different metaphor, trust is built in drops, but lost in buckets. The building an analogy or metaphor. If there's a floor missing, potentially the whole thing comes crumbling down.
[:[00:11:55] Andrew: Yes. Your first impression.
[:[00:12:04] Andrew: You might say that they're false signals that people judge each other on because if I'm judging you on anything before you've even opened your mouth, we would label that as prejudice, but everyone does it. And then if I judge you as trustworthy or not, in the first five minutes, you would say, I'm rushing to conclusions jumping, dare I say, but we all do that as well. All the research is clear in, people will form an impression of you based on your social media profile or anything else they can find about you. They'll judge you for whether or not you smile, make eye contact or not, depending on the culture that you're in, whether you have an open body posture, a firm handshake, how you say your name, whether or not you remember their name and use it.
[:[00:13:21] When you say name, rank, and serial number, or a resume dump in response to an invitation to introduce yourself, you almost always do yourself a disservice. It's like pulling out a pylon or two. So I think you can do a lot by thinking about how you share who you are and where you come from in a way that reveals why you do what you do, why you care about what you care about.
[:[00:14:17] Trisha: So how then. Does that hold up when teams span cultures? And if you like, the unwritten rules of culture are a little bit different about how you should be addressed or, you know, the titles we should use. I mean, I haven't used your title in terms of your qualifications.
[:[00:14:43] And so how do we. You know, I'm anticipating that it becomes that much harder to build trust because of the culture's impact. When teams are spanning a culture? How can we, how can we do this well?
[:[00:15:08] We'll have a step into some of these traps. As it turns out, what people really care about, or rather should I say, what people really trust is human beings who are curious, who care about other people and who make an effort.
[:[00:15:56] you, and then to graciously make your best effort to take into account cultural norms.
[:[00:16:30] So may I ask, do you prefer titles or not? Do you want me to call you by your first name or not? And you can simply ask. I mean, I've not had many people say no, Andrew, but I do like to say, I've done my research and this is what I understand, but each human is unique. So I don't know that many people who have been born and lived in the same house and are still working from it.
[:[00:17:23] Not like walking through the world thinking you're God's gift to humanity, the exact opposite. How can I choose a way of being and a set of manners really that allows someone else to feel like it was fun and interesting to me?
[:[00:17:42] Andrew: I think so because when that's happened to me, my, my feeling is. This person is really trying. They're doing so graciously. They've made an effort. They're curious. I mean, the word I use for that kind of human is lovely and I trust lovely people. Not only, but
[:[00:18:04] Trisha: Your question in terms of asking people how they would like to be referred to, or acknowledging who they might be is a great way for just sort of establishing a recognition of who they are and acknowledging where they exist in their culture. So I can sort of see that pattern, you know, would really support someone even if you are. Next question is perhaps not exactly appropriate to their culture. So you've acknowledged who they are and then asked them how they might prefer to be dealt with, which I think sounds lovely. Yeah.
[:[00:18:38] I also want to emphasize, I don't think you can make it other people's job to help you be culturally sensitive by just asking all the questions. I do think you need to do your homework and show up and demonstrate you've done a lot of work, then you'll be given enormous grace.
[:[00:18:57] that's where CQ knowledge comes in and recognizing, for example
[:[00:19:05] the formal titles because that would make people feel that you are speaking appropriately to them. And yet, as Andrew says, they may come from a very different heart space, and so they may immediately ask you to call them by their first name.
[:[00:19:36] And I'm thinking about, you know, maybe mismatched experiences or norms that aren't spoken or just people not reaching people in the right way.
[:[00:20:10] that kind of sentiment.
[:[00:20:35] So mostly, you know, we say we trust someone who does what they say they're gonna do.
[:[00:21:12] I'm expecting you to do X plus Y. Maybe I'm expecting you to give me a report plus call me, sir. And that may be a little thing, and the expectations may be huge, but the unfairness of humanity is we'll judge each other really harshly for not meeting our expectations, even though we haven't shared them.
[:[00:22:03] It's that expectation gap that kills us, and I believe that insight is both. Devastating. Annoying and frustrating, but also a secret weapon if you care to be the most trustworthy person, you know? 'cause it allows you to simply ask someone, Trisha, here's my promise, but what else do you trust me to do?
[:[00:22:51] And I don't see that conversation happening in companies or between humans very much at all.
[:[00:23:04] not doing it so well.
[:[00:23:16] There's planning, there's awareness, and there's checking. And it is seen in some of the research as being important for building trust across cultures. So that's really about the thinking that people do, about what they know. So how does this finding fit in with your own work on designing trustworthy habits?
[:[00:24:01] So you might say a failure to plan is a plan to failure.
[:[00:24:57] No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm still fully in control, but I don't lie to myself that other people will judge me based on what I promised. They'll judge me on their expectations. Therefore, from their point of view, my promise is their expectations, and if I don't like that gap, I can do something about it.
[:[00:25:41] And if you ask people, do you trust me? Don't expect them to say no. 'cause that's an uncomfortable thing to say. So you do have to with awareness, think about how might I check for evidence that people trust me? Do they call me first? Do they give me advantages? The book I'm writing is called The Trust Advantage.
[:[00:26:25] Trisha: So how do you recommend then that we approach the situation? Where that trust isn't there, where we're not getting the advantages. So we need to do some of that repair you spoke about. And especially if there are, you know, different cultures and so different expectations around apologies or acknowledgement or saving face and those things.
[:[00:27:15] They want you to fix the impact or the mess that your broken promise has created, and they want to see you have character in the moment of your failure. So that they know they can count on you next time. So I recommend instead of saying, oh, I'm so sorry I'm late. And then make up an excuse like the traffic was bad.
[:[00:28:00] So what I recommend instead is saying, here's what happened. No excuses, no reasons. I assume, or I guess the impact on you, Trisha, is you're annoyed or you're late with your own deadline. Whatever you see as the impact. But then ask, may I ask, what's the impact on you? And people will often deflect and say, it's no big deal, or I don't know.
[:[00:28:39] commit to fix it and then do it. Or at least be honest that you won't or you can't. Some eggs can't be unscrambled.
[:[00:28:49] Which an apology can be authentic. 'cause I can say, Trisha may, I apologize for the impact, which is what you care about, rather than apologizing because I feel bad. So I don't say, don't apologize. Just don't lead with it for the wrong reasons. End with it and demonstrate your character in the meantime. And what I found is a, an approach like that can often have you be more trusted.
[:[00:29:37] Trisha: I think the people who you made the point about impact, the impact that your behavior
[:[00:29:45] I think so often people try to excuse the impact with their intent. You know, I didn't mean to, or, you know, yeah, you may not have, but the impact is still valid and people focusing on the impact.
[:[00:30:07] You often speak in your work about systems that embed trust into the culture of teams. Which is one of the things we were discussing with Hanlie about systems within teams, within organizations.
[:[00:30:33] Andrew: I think flexibility isn't, is in and of itself a trustworthy skill. So yes, and I would distinguish that we need both trust and trustworthiness. One is the judgment that you're worthy of trust. The other is the generous gift. To trust another person, and they're related, but they're different phenomena. And I think you need both in an organization.
[:[00:31:21] As Hanlie would tell you better than I could. Our habits are encoded in the systems, the physical spaces, the people, and our mindsets that make up the context of our work environment or our lifetimes. So how I think about it is, number one, just teach everybody and have them practice the skills that the research says.
[:[00:32:10] So I would train people. Train leaders. I would build it into the way we run meetings, the way we interact with clients, the promises we make to clients. Instead of saying, we're perfect, it'll work all the time. Say we have a nine out of 10 track record,
[:[00:32:35] I'm much more impressed by someone who tells me how they'll handle it when there's a break. Rather than someone who promises me, things will never go wrong.
[:[00:32:58] And when you put all that together, what I've found is high trust companies move faster and are more innovative. They keep good people who stay engaged and they cost less, and prospects buy more faster, they stay longer, even when you're more expensive and they willingly refer you, and all of that creates an enormous trust advantage. But I've not found many companies that are serious about owning that most trustworthy, competitive mountaintop.
[:[00:33:46] I think if you're not trying to own it, you're missing an opportunity. And if you're not
[:[00:33:57] Trisha: And you can see how that benefit would play out from both internal, within the organization, say for employee engagement or
[:[00:34:08] All of those aspects as well as to the clients or the customers, as you're saying.
[:[00:34:14] Trisha: Yeah. That's quite fascinating. One of the things we've started talking about so much more these days, and I've had you know, some conversations with previous guests as well, about is the impact of AI on workplaces.
[:[00:34:35] Andrew: I think that AI has already demonstrated through its use in fake. Scams and all of what we see happening. Crime perpetrated through the sophisticated use of ai. Everyone is rightly more skeptical, more careful, more untrusting,
[:[00:34:56] that's costing society and business enormously. You can complain about its existence.
[:[00:35:26] That's a whole topic on its own. I think the other one is this view and my particular view of the future. I'm often wrong. Seldom am I lacking confidence. So I'll tell you what it's is for. What it's worth is that in a world where we can't trust that you are actually real Trisha, you could be a video avatar right now, when I can't trust that the premium on face-to-face verification is gonna go up and the premium on the skills that actual humans have that demonstrates I am human, not just human, but the most trustworthy human.
[:[00:36:36] Trisha: I love that. And
[:[00:36:56] Andrew: Advice piece number one would be, listen to your podcast because I happen to think you're bringing gems that you may not have labeled as trust building, but intercultural IQ or awareness and meta, these metacognitive skills and your planning, awareness and checking framework are built on the idea of trustworthiness as a set of skills.
[:[00:37:55] So, you know,
[:[00:38:14] we offer a trust advantage leadership cohort starting in January.
[:[00:38:25] Trisha: Okay, so that goes for a year?
[:[00:38:33] Trisha: lovely.
[:[00:38:35] Trisha: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's something people can do next year. In the meantime, how can people follow up with you to learn more about your work?
[:[00:38:52] Habits at work. A.T.W.O.R.K. dot com Is our main business site. I'm a professional speaker. Andrew sykes.com is where I talk about what I talk about. Our executive experiences are at Cerne Life, C-E-R-E-N-E, life, and those are really for people looking to do exotic retreats that are the genesis of becoming unrecognizable to ourselves in all the best ways.
[:[00:39:25] Trisha: amazing.
[:[00:39:28] Trisha: I was going to say, that's another whole topic. Yeah, let's have a retreat to do the deep work.
[:[00:39:50] Andrew: Yes. My first book with Hanlie is called The 11th Habit. It's the idea that we only get around at the 11th hour to the habits that really matter most to our health, happiness, and financial security. So it's a guidebook for people and leaders to build companies that leave us healthy, healthier, happier, and more financially secure every day instead of the opposite.
[:[00:40:18] with an artist who's the husband. of Hanlie
[:[00:40:25] But my second business book is at the beginning of a two year cycle. It's called the Trust Advantage, and I'm inviting people to come on the journey with me. So I have a newsletter that people sign up for that where
[:[00:40:45] Trisha: Oh, that's a lovely way to do it, isn't it?
[:[00:40:51] Trisha: oh.
[:[00:40:59] Trisha: Yeah.
[:[00:41:03] information examples. You'll collect the research and you'll get feedback. It'll be wonderful. What a great process.
[:[00:41:31] Trisha: That's fantastic. I love it. Okay. I might need to sign up for that newsletter as well.
[:[00:41:44] Trisha: Oh, I would love to. That would be fantastic. Yeah.
[:[00:41:48] Trisha: Andrew, in conclusion, as you look at your life and the people you've worked with, your family and community, and as you look at the future, what are you hoping for?
[:[00:42:07] Trisha: Mm. globally with my kids and family and everywhere in between. And I don't just mean, you know, peace where there's no conflict. 'cause conflict can be healthy, but there's a healthy way to have conflict. I'm very inspired by Aristotle's concept of eudaimonia,
[:[00:42:28] And I believe that if every human on the planet is continually working on any skill in the service of other people. Not only is it a fulfilling life, but who would've the time, the energy, or the motive for hate and abuse and war? So why don't we just all level up together, have each other's backs, create a beautiful planet.
[:[00:42:54] Trisha: I love that. Thank you so much, and thank you for giving us your time and wisdom today. You greatly appreciate it.
[:[00:43:12] Trisha: Thank you Andrew, and thank you listeners for being with us on this learning journey. If you want to continue on that journey, please make sure that you have pushed subscribe or follow so that you are joining us next week for the next episode of the Shift.
