Episode 36
Jennifer Izekor - Cultivating Leaders with Cultural Intelligence
This week, Trisha interviews Jennifer Izekor, Above Difference's CEO and founder. They discuss the importance of cultural intelligence (CQ) in leadership and inclusive practices. Jennifer shares insights from her personal and professional journey, including her cross-cultural upbringing and work fostering inclusive leadership. They explore the challenges and rewards of implementing cultural intelligence in various sectors, emphasizing the need for vision, empathy, and strategic thinking in driving organizational change. Jennifer also talks about an upcoming learning event aimed at enhancing cultural intelligence and inclusive leadership skills.
Connect with Jennifer via LinkedIn or Above Difference's website and register for their learning event here
Transcript
I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.
[:
[00:01:00] Trisha: As those of you who have listened to some of our earlier episodes will be aware, cultural intelligence, CQ, the capability to be effective in situations of diversity, is made up of four areas. Motivational, the drive. Cognitive, the knowledge. Metacognitive, the strategy. And behavioral, the action. And all four of these help us operate effectively when we're in situations of diversity.
[:[00:01:47] Trisha: She's the CEO and founder of Above Difference, an award winning UK consultancy who work with people in the public and community sectors to bring about change in people and organisations. And they do that by increasing the skills of cultural intelligence and inclusive leadership. Jennifer's background leading community and government organizations prepares her well for delivering these changed focused strategic interventions across England.
[:[00:02:20] Jennifer: Thank you, Trisha. It's an absolute pleasure to be here, it really is. I've been looking forward to this, eh,
[:[00:02:25] Trisha: Oh, thank you. It's been hard to get a time because you're so busy,
[:[00:02:31] Trisha: but that's a good thing. It's a good thing that, that your services are in so much demand. We're all very aware, even on this side of the world, of the challenges that have been impacting communities across the UK. And I look forward to hearing your insights about how your work speaks to these challenges.
[:[00:02:59] Jennifer: wow, that's such a great question, Trisha, and, I had a really interesting upbringing anyway, because I was born in the UK and I was in the UK till I was about seven years old, , and for a whole number of reasons I lived with a lot of, British families. So, I had a lot of that meant that was the culture I was, I grew up in until I was about seven.
[:[00:03:39] Jennifer: Loving, You know, the British culture. I'm a British citizen. I've come back, you know, I came back in my early 20s. I've lived and worked here ever since I had my daughter here, but my Nigerian heritage is also very, very powerful part of whom I am. And, you know, Nigeria is a very diverse community. So I'm from a place called Benin, Benin City, and that heritage in particular, that culture is still very much a huge part of my makeup.
[:[00:04:07] Trisha: That's wonderful. Yeah. Good on your parents for, you know, enabling that to happen.
[:[00:04:30] Jennifer: look after us.
[:[00:04:54] Trisha: Yeah.
[:[00:04:55] Trisha: And so maybe that this will influence the next question. Can you tell me about a time when you experienced the shift, you know, when you suddenly became aware of a different perspective?
[:[00:05:14] Jennifer: I think the one I often talk about is, is the generational shift and culture. You know, and I, I am blessed to have an amazing 28 year old daughter, um, who I, you know, who I had here and, and she's just the most phenomenal person in the world.
[:[00:05:48] Jennifer: And she's a millennial. And without putting that, you know, millennials all millennials into boxes, you know, I slowly began to understand that actually. There was a real cultural shift that needed to happen in my head, in terms of my because having grown up, you know, and I hope your listeners will be aware, for instance, of some of the terminologies that we all love with cultural intelligence.
[:[00:06:34] Jennifer: So, so, um, you know, and, and we, we debate things and we have discussions about things and I grew up not talking back to my parents, but just accepting what I was told. And so I realized that as I, as I parented aware of cultural intelligence that, um, I needed to see her as having a very different culture from mine.
[:[00:07:26] Trisha: And not to label them all, in the same way as you describe.
[:[00:07:43] Jennifer: They talk back. They want that, you know, they don't want to work as long hours as we work. And, and, and you understand that, that that's a culture thing. And I say to them, well, hold on, that's the, that's the, You know, that's a culture thing. They're a different culture and you need to think, you adapt your culture, your thinking when you're working with that age group.
[:[00:08:07] Jennifer: but it's understanding what, what are the dynamics, um, and, paradigms that shape the things that they value. And, and I think that that's been, and I'm not seeing that as a negative and that's been a journey for me with, in my parenting. And I think it's a journey that many of us who are working now need to take as we look at, you know, younger generation really admire and value what they bring to the table, even if it's different.
[:[00:08:53] Trisha: And I can imagine the challenges in all those pieces of work, but I'd also love to hear what the joys were. So tell us a little bit about it.
[:[00:09:21] Jennifer: You know, it's in the name of my organization Above Difference. How do I make a difference? I think is what's always sort of, It's what's driven me. You know, when I came back into the country as a, you know, my early twenties, having grown up in a culture where young people's voices were not heard, I wanted to make young people's voices heard.
[:[00:09:46] Jennifer: and the joy of engaging with so many diverse young people and hearing their voices and being part of an organization then that was passionate about making them heard, you know, and, and that for me has always, you know, seeing young people make that when you equip them with the right skills, the right support, seeing them make that transformation themselves, once they're empowered to do it, that's, that's always been.
[:[00:10:12] Jennifer: I think, you know, I got to do that on a much larger scale as I, as I rose up through leadership. I've always been passionate about creating services, you know, putting things together, creating new ways of doing things. Um, I, I got to lead a lot of, you know, initiatives when I was a director for children and learners across London, there was something called Young London Matters, which again had young people's voices at the heart of it.
[:[00:10:53] Jennifer: time.
[:[00:10:54] Trisha: Yes. I bet.
[:[00:11:12] Jennifer: And you see these light bulb moments go on
[:[00:11:22] Trisha: absolutely. And, and helping people to get to those light bulb moments is really, you know, what I'm, I'm trying to unpack in this podcast and helping people to have their own light bulb moments, because sometimes we don't, we don't do that for ourselves. I'm thinking about you setting up your business, and that was obviously a bit of a shift from working for other organisations.
[:[00:11:47] Jennifer: Well, my last role, um, was as, as you mentioned briefly, as a commissioner for the independent police complaints commission. And, and there was some really challenging circumstances that arose for me in that role, personally, and, and, and, you know, that's well documented. And, and, you know, I, I've always believed that when things happen to you, You, you, you can't always choose what happens to you, but you can in many cases choose how you respond to it.
[:[00:12:26] Jennifer: in that job. Now, many of whom were in the police and, and were senior leaders who just kept saying to me, you know, I want to get this right, this inclusion thing, but how do i do it
[:[00:12:53] Jennifer: that seems to inform some of the actions and behavior. and I was challenged by that concept, but we're human. We are ultimately all human. We, we have differences and these differences are incredibly important, but we are human. And so even in choosing the name Above Difference, that was the challenge in my head.
[:[00:13:41] Jennifer: And you see the, the thing about things like that, where you have, you know, accusations, or you have these long debates, or long, is that there are no winners.
[:[00:13:57] Jennifer: and, and I just thought there has to be a better way, there just has to be a better way. There has to be a way where we find bridges to walk over and even if we are on separate sides, we find places where we meet in the middle. And cultural intelligence, I got to do the certification with David during the time I was going, going through some of that.
[:[00:14:19] Jennifer: there going. Okay, this could be the missing link, could be one of the ways, this could be something that helps people see difference differently. This could explain a lot of things, because often some of these difficulties arise when you hear You know, they're all obviously the very nasty intentional stuff, but a lot of it, and I find this all the time in my work is misunderstandings about why we do things the way we do them
[:[00:14:52] Jennifer: So my challenge with the shift that happened in my mind was, there's a place above difference where we can find a way to work together you know, there's a place where we can see our humanity. Recognize the importance of our differences to us, recognize the different perspectives that gives us, and bring that diversity together in a way that actually produces the most amazing results, projects, outcomes, benefits for communities.
[:[00:15:36] Jennifer: And it still is. I love CQ as a tool, but as you and I know, it came very much from the business world. And I think when it, when it comes into the inclusion arena. It only works well when you actually align it with inclusive leadership, because actually what inclusive leadership gives you is the vision.
[:[00:16:02] Jennifer: then I challenged myself on, okay, but then how do you equip people to lead change? Because actually change doesn't just happen because we want it to.
[:[00:16:25] Jennifer: all the work we're do in Above Difference.
[:[00:17:02] Trisha: And we can, we can work together, in a way that it takes us towards, is it sort of, a sense of like, The goals or the purpose, you know, what, what do you focus on that sits above the differences at the common humanity.
[:[00:17:35] Jennifer: you know, as a black woman I can hardly ignore them. And as one who's personally experienced what that can look like in its ugliest way. no, but I do have a saying, and it's something I passionately believe is that inclusion has to be about everyone or it becomes about no one. And, and that's not saying that we have to treat everybody the same because we don't, but if you look at an organizational context, right?
[:[00:18:15] Jennifer: You know, and actually whatever policies you may have at the top of the organization and no matter how much you love the EDI agenda and how many people you're going to recruit, you're then going to send them back into teams.
[:[00:18:28] Jennifer: believe in this. this.
[:[00:18:47] Jennifer: And if you're not leading all your people well, then you're simply not leading well. So the debate I want to have with organizations is let's talk about how we equip your leaders to lead all their people well. And if they're going to lead all their people well, then they have to be able to flex across cultures, so they'll need cultural intelligence.
[:[00:19:27] Jennifer: Now that's the kind of organization we all want to work and, and run.
[:[00:19:32] Jennifer: And, and so my, my focus in Above Difference is equipping leaders to be those leaders who can lead all their people well with the skills and tools they need. It's equipping organizations to challenge themselves on what does it mean to equip all our leaders, all our managers to lead all our people well, and equipping organizations and leaders to understand the power that lies behind the culture.
[:[00:20:06] Trisha: And, and often when we think about individuals, we can think about how to help the individual to shift. And then when you're thinking we need to shift this whole culture towards having a focus that is inclusive, and that can be so, so much more challenging. So when you've been working with organizations, what do you think needs to happen before an organization
[:[00:20:30] Jennifer: Well, the first thing is that, you know, and I say this to leaders is leaders need to understand how much responsibility they have for the culture and I'm constantly amazed at the fact that that very basic principle isn't known by a lot of people. Okay. You know what I would say when I was leading and managing, I didn't know it either.
[:[00:21:27] Jennifer: I love it. What Edgar Schein says, you know, he says, you know, the only thing of real importance that leaders do is create a managed culture. And if you don't do it, it will happen around you irrespective. And I think I'm paraphrasing now, whether you know it or not, but that's it. So. And then, you know, John Maxwell says, I use a clip that he does on culture, you know, and he says, the culture of an organization can never be better than the behavior of its leaders, period.
[:[00:22:26] Jennifer: valued
[:[00:22:28] Jennifer: And this for me is really important when it comes to, organizations that are community facing. You cannot ask people who do not feel valued,
[:[00:22:37] Trisha: absolutely.
[:[00:22:39] Jennifer: right, you know?
[:[00:22:44] Trisha: caring, showing, showing love, you know, and
[:[00:22:48] Trisha: if they're not valued, they can't
[:[00:22:50] Jennifer: Yeah. So if they're, if they're not feeling value, so I think, you know, just to finish your question, culture is the first thing.
[:[00:23:12] Jennifer: But then you've got to get people recognizing this is a big challenge. That actually you've got to change what is to what you want it to be,
[:[00:23:20] Jennifer: you know, and if, and I always say this is the turning the tank a
[:[00:23:23] Jennifer: you know, and, and as you know, from a lot of that school of thought that when you want to change an organization, it is a tanker turning exercise and actually got to do that well, or people will just fly off.
[:[00:23:52] Jennifer: If you think you're leading and no one's following you, you're simply taking a walk.
[:[00:24:24] Trisha: skills in sport. And he was talking about practice, practice, practice, that you hit the ball over and over again. And I think you do get to a point when you have, you know, practiced your inclusive leadership that it does become intuitive and innate. But so often, you know, if you're dealing with somebody who's different to you, you need to be thinking about that person.
[:[00:25:05] Trisha: being able to do that.
[:[00:25:23] Jennifer: you know, why do you want, why is it important?
[:[00:25:32] Jennifer: pressure, whether it's the economic crisis, whether it's stuff going on, you know, internationally, that's just, you know, the post trauma of, COVID, you know, people are
[:[00:25:43] Jennifer: People are just literally in survival mode. And so when you're then going along and going, well, you've got to care about that. You've got to figure out how the 20 people in your team, what all their different cultural values are. You've got to figure out how you adapt your behavior to each and every one of these in order to create.
[:[00:26:00] Jennifer: people are fatigued and, and, and unless you make that make sense, you know, to someone that there's only so much you can do of it. And I think we've got enough scientific evidence, you know, enough, sorry, enough research that tells us that when you, um, when you are leading an inclusive team, well, and actually as, as our friend Dave says, leveraging that diversity effectively, then you're going to get better
[:[00:26:23] Jennifer: your, outcomes are going to be better. Your profitability is going to be better. You, your team morale is going to be better. So, so getting, helping leaders to see, A, understand what their vision is. For whatever it is they're doing and then understand how actually creating an inclusive culture where they're able to leverage the best out of everyone is actually going to help them get there.
[:[00:26:50] Jennifer: opposed to let's just do it out of the goodness of our hearts, you know, because I'm sorry, I think we're living in a world where none of us, wherever we come from, are able to just do that. And I said, I think sometimes that that link is lacking, you know, it's missing.
[:[00:27:21] Jennifer: They didn't feel that their needs were being met. And so there were ongoing debates at a board level about the EDI and how we do this and how we do that. The question I had for them is, let me get this right, 40 percent of your organization isn't, you're not optimizing it because they don't feel valued.
[:[00:27:56] Jennifer: How are you ever, because even the same, in the same conversation, you're telling me how stressed you all are.
[:[00:28:10] Jennifer: up. So I think we've got to get people not just seeing this as, I mean, it is a nice to do. but unfortunately as humans, we're not always nice to each other as a, you know, recent headline show.
[:[00:28:31] Jennifer: it just makes sense for us to find ways of engaging better with each other.
[:[00:28:49] Trisha: 5th birthday, or have you
[:[00:28:54] Jennifer: year.
[:[00:29:01] Jennifer: now, which
[:[00:29:04] Trisha: You have a big event coming up. Um, it's bringing people together from lots of different organizations.
[:[00:29:12] Jennifer: Oh, I'm so excited about this. So, um, I, I'm, I'm one who keeps evolving things and I've recently renamed our program, transforming cultures, changing behaviors and engaging diverse communities with cultural intelligence. It's a mouthful and that means nobody can make an acronym out of it. But, but, um, and so two things excite me about it.
[:[00:29:49] Jennifer: of
[:[00:29:52] Jennifer: uh, leading, there you go, the real secret to success, leading with cultural intelligence, the real secret to success, quick book club for, uh, club for Dave.
[:[00:30:25] Jennifer: I think was not was something that I just couldn't pass up. So I'm really excited about it. It's nerve wracking because it's the first big public event we've done and I still think people are now just going, I get loads of people going, Yeah, but can't we just watch it online. No come! Because it's just so exciting to be together.. Come, come join
[:[00:31:07] Jennifer: So if you haven't booked your place on it, please, please, please do book now. I can't wait to see you. I'm really excited about it.
[:[00:31:13] Trisha: And we'll put a note in the show notes that people can link to,
[:[00:31:20] Trisha: they go to above
[:[00:31:22] Jennifer: Yes. Go to www. abovedifference. com and there's information about the event on there. I'm really sorry we haven't quite figured out and we're holding it in this lovely sort of center based in the community in East London. So you get a real flavor of East
[:[00:31:35] Jennifer: um, which is as diverse as it gets. Um, but, um, we haven't figured out how to sort of have it online at the same time.
[:[00:32:04] Jennifer: I just think we have to spread the message that there is a different way, you know, build on, but we've, the world is changing so fast and we all need each other so desperately, so we've got to find different ways of being with each other.
[:[00:32:31] Trisha: fruitful thing to do.
[:[00:32:49] Jennifer: about and the challenges people have
[:[00:33:05] Trisha: Oh, good one.
[:[00:33:08] Jennifer: discussion because people had such diverse views about it. You know, and, and, and it was, it was almost sort of, it felt really weird having the same discussion in two different
[:[00:33:38] Jennifer: Especially if that's someone, as a leader, you know quite well, you know, what do you do? Do you, do you, you know, and how does what you do impact not just A, on the person, which is a challenge I throw back at people, the person who may or may not have said whatever they said, The person who might be in the, on the other end of it, the victim of a bitter, the receiving end of it. And then the culture of the team? Because that's a big one. Because if you don't deal with it, well, what you're doing as a leader is saying, actually, this is okay.
[:[00:34:16] Jennifer: So it's a real thorny issue. And underneath all of that is, The fact that there's a natural, especially in the UK, we're not good at confrontations.
[:[00:35:09] Trisha: And I can imagine some of the conversations and some of the people saying, you know, you need to do it in private or you need to do it, you know, and yeah, and
[:[00:35:20] Trisha: because of, because of the impact on culture. And I think maybe that's one of the things that I've been thinking about since, um, since the episode, uh, with Brian speaking about hitting the ball and practicing it over and over, we need to practice that moment when somebody says something, um, because that will happen and it will happen again.
[:[00:35:50] Jennifer: Yeah.
[:[00:35:54] Jennifer: I've ..up on this wonderful model by, you know, I know it's talking about Simon Sinek love and completely girl fanning on him at the moment because he just comes up great stuff. And he talks about the FBI model you know the feelings the behavior the impact. And when you do have that one on one conversation with people, you know, starting off with that this is really difficult conversation but I've got to have it with You You know, it feels really difficult and then talking about the behavior and then getting people to understand the impact because often what we've heard in a lot of reports, and I don't know if it's the same for you when some of these things have come up in your neck of the woods. It's like, well, it was banter. It was just chat. It was, It was, harmless. it was just a joke. Of course they're not racist. Of course they're not sexist. Of course they're not. It was just, come on now, can't we take a joke? And then it comes, if you're looking at things like sexism or generational things, oh, it's this new generation, you know, they're just too delicate or, oh God, it's the woke agenda.
[:[00:37:05] Jennifer: so either you empower the person who did it to come back and go you know what I, I, you know, I realized in the last team meeting I said something I did something that actually wasn't very acceptable. I've had a conversation, and I apologize for the impact it had, or you as the leader, do something or you say something but what you can't do is just assume that everybody knows that you've addressed it, you know. So those conversations and conversations about role modeling as a leader, how you role model your own behaviors. If you're busy chatting negatively about the leaders above you, then you are creating a culture in your team of negativity. And for to really understand things like that, I find that really fascinating.
[:[00:38:03] Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's walk past, sit past, you know, whatever it is, is, is that if you let it happen, then you've put it, And say nothing. then you accept it, but it is, it is recognizing that just because someone's a leader doesn't suddenly make them brave, confrontate, and, and people need the skills to do that.
[:[00:38:52] Jennifer: And actually they're great. Tools out there, you know, really great tools out there to help us do this well.
[:[00:39:03] Trisha: a good way to
[:[00:39:51] Trisha: sounds wonderful. So we have a few closing questions.
[:[00:40:01] Jennifer: Ooh, such a great question. I think have a vision for what you think the world could look like. That's important. You know, I think if we look at what is, sometimes it can be very discouraging. You know, but to look above and beyond that and go that, you know, every day you turn on the news and they're just awful things happening, but there is also just such beautiful beauty in humanity.
[:[00:41:07] Trisha: Back to
[:[00:41:09] Jennifer: And you know, pity parties work.
[:[00:41:23] Jennifer: And I think if there is a calling in your heart for whatever reason to be a change maker.
[:[00:41:36] Trisha: That's lovely. And finally, as you look at your life, the people you've worked with, colleagues, clients, family and community, and as you look at the future, what are you hoping for?
[:[00:41:50] Jennifer: Yeah. And, I, you know, my daughter's 28 and I hope one day she starts a family too. And, and, and I think, I think on all levels, we've all got to work to leave the world a better place than the one we came in. Right now, I think there's a real danger that we might lose that battle.
[:[00:42:23] Jennifer: And so I think I hope that through the work that I do through the stuff that I bring, I hope that in some little way I contribute towards a better future.
[:[00:42:39] Jennifer: then I'll feel
[:[00:42:42] Jennifer: Well,
[:[00:42:47] Trisha: wonderful chat. Thank you listeners. And I hope that you will follow us along so that you can be listening for the next episode of the shift.
