Episode 35
Revisiting David Livermore and Cultural Intelligence
In this episode, we revisit an earlier episode and the second part of an interview with David Livermore, a key researcher, author and speaker in the Cultural Intelligence field. Trisha explains why this episode is so vital in learning how to help ourselves and others shift.
She also offers a surprise prize to the first listeners to share about the episode!
You can pre-order David’s new book here
Transcript
[00:00:21] Trisha: The episode we're going to replay is episode four with David Livermore. David is one of the main voices in cultural intelligence. He worked in Singapore alongside Sun Ang, who is one of the seminal researchers in the area. And the research team alongside her developing the model, he founded the CQ center in the understanding and the assessment tool to the public.
[:[00:01:12] Trisha: before we go to the episode I wanted to also let you know that Dave is about to launch the third edition of his book Leading with Cultural Intelligence. If you've written a book, updated it once, and then the publisher asks you to write another edition, that has to say something, and not that the first two were wrong.
[:[00:01:52] Trisha: I'll have a link to pre order in the show notes, and as a special prize, if you are the first to post on LinkedIn about this episode, sharing something you learnt, and if you tag me in so that I can see it, I will send you a free copy of the book when I receive my pre ordered copies. Okay, so now to the episode.
[:[00:02:16] Trisha: I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.
[:[00:03:17] Trisha: The shift. We began this conversation with my guest today in the last episode, giving some real background understanding to cultural intelligence. So if you haven't heard that one, you're not too sure what CQ is, you might like to jump back and listen to that. Or you can do that after you've listened to today's episode.
[:[00:04:06] Trisha: Recently, he's taken on a new role as professor of global leadership at Boston University. And the leadership aspect is one that is really interesting as we think about cultural intelligence and as we think about helping people to make those moments of shifts. Today, we're going to talk about the element of cultural intelligence that is CQ strategy, what it is, how it helps us to increase our cultural intelligence and where that process of shift fits into it.
[:[00:04:51] David: So the way I would answer that question this time is a country of which I am a citizen, but I did not grow up there and that's Canada.
[:[00:05:58] David: Oh,
[:[00:06:21] Trisha: We're talking in this podcast about culture and about how we see culture and about how sometimes we have these moments of shift. The moments when we have an aha experience and recognize things differently. So maybe we see a new perspective. Maybe we can hear our own judgments or biases, but a moment that is a moment of clarity.
[:[00:06:55] David: Yes. And this one's a little difficult to share. I haven't shared it publicly, um, other than just one other time. And, uh, let me back into it by saying many in the diversity space, as well as us in cultural intelligence, often say.
[:[00:07:29] David: This was in my own organization that I was leading, and, um, I kind of have a reputation, and this won't surprise you, Tricia, because we have more than a decade of relationship, of being a bit of a jokester, lighthearted, trying to lighten the moment, and so I often have a reputation in our office of being someone who would either startle people or bang on the door, you know, our, our team was very fastidious and it always sounded like a library.
[:[00:08:21] David: I'm like, Oh, my word. Like, is it? Of course, the initial reflection I wanted to do as it relates to shift is. Is there anything to the fact that she's black and I'm doing this and of course I immediately moved to no I did it to this guy who's white and this person here this is just obnoxious Dave and I should say my wife inserted as I was reflecting on this I've been telling you for 30 years most people don't like to be startled so maybe you could just stop doing it period but Regardless, the race part of it unnerved me, especially given the work that we do.
[:[00:09:15] David: So we began to talk and she kind of shared a little bit of the background of it. And I could tell she was very nervous as she was talking. And at one point, and I wouldn't always say this is the right question to ask, but at one point I said, can I ask you what you think my intention was? Of doing that.
[:[00:10:00] David: And even though I could work out of my mind, you weren't trying to be abusive or trying to be discriminatory. I had to deal with all that. And she said, when I shared it with one of my coworkers, they were like, just tell Dave not to do it. And she's like, tell the most senior person in the organization, please don't do that to me.
[:[00:10:37] David: So I, it only happened a couple of years ago, but it's, it's one that I've reflected on a lot as. The ongoing shifts that I continue to do myself in this work, um, even while we talk to other people about how to do it better.
[:[00:10:58] Trisha: And a lot of that learning, um, is embedded with, within our own thinking, um, and, and our willingness to go back and reflect and our willingness to be open to, to thinking about things, I guess. There wasn't a specific moment, it was probably a growth awareness for you, the new awareness about intent and impact.
[:[00:11:48] David: And it was like, I thought sure she was going to say like I was doing it to intimidate her or something and then it was like it in part it was disarming. Um, but it was You know, the very thing we teach so much in cultural intelligence that, you know, what means respect to me may not mean respect to you.
[:[00:12:10] Trisha: Yeah. And what's going to build that relationship or what are the barriers? To building that relationship might be unexpected and, you know, something really important to somebody else that is of minor importance to us. And so if we aren't open to recognizing that,
[:[00:12:35] David: I think that's where sometimes people become defensive in diversity training, where we're talking about cultural intelligence of, well, give me a break. Like, you were trying to be a nice guy. It doesn't matter if I was trying to be a nice guy, if it makes you uncomfortable and she could even see I was trying to be a nice guy.
[:[00:12:57] Trisha: and we also need to acknowledge the role of your wife. Um, you know, probably the person who, who is your reflection, your reflection piece quite often, I imagine.
[:[00:13:30] David: Be hard on me. Most people don't like to be startled, but also be like, okay, let's not overreact here and say, I'm, my whole thing is a fake. I'm not even culturally intelligent in any way. So,
[:[00:13:51] Trisha: And you've. You've researched this, you've written about this, you've coached, you know, leaders around the world about this. What are some things you want people to know about CQ strategy when you were training or coaching them?
[:[00:14:18] David: For example, all the talk that we're appropriately hearing these days about well being, meditation, mindfulness, yoga, whatever one's preferred thing is, I mean, you and I know well that the research says exercising that muscle, even if it isn't related to an intercultural experience can actually be something that will help you with it.
[:[00:14:59] David: For me, you know, this about me, Trisha for me, reflection happens most with writing. Like, I take my journal with me everywhere in the world. And almost every morning, I'm reflecting a little bit on you. You know, what conversations did I have yesterday? Okay, I interacted with Trisha and I had a interesting conversation about something she's just been through.
[:[00:15:38] David: Like, you know, let me go for a walk with my friend and talk through the experience of what happened. So I think we need to. pull back from the dogmas on here's how you exercise mindfulness. It should, you should be meditating five minutes every day. You should be journaling every day, or you must be doing yoga.
[:[00:16:19] David: One is just the value of a cultural interpreter. So, particularly with the kind of situation that I just talked with, I have a few friends who. also happen to be black, but you know, that there could be other individuals who could help me with this too, who I really process that experience with them. And I knew they wouldn't worry about being tough on a white guy would give it to me like it is, but like, help me kind of think through what's an appropriate way to do that, you know, name the culture and it can be super valuable if we have that.
[:[00:17:14] David: What, what do I need to pay attention to? And I know that's a lot of work that you do when you're coaching too, like of, of what should I be aware and aware of what? So. Those are a few thoughts that I would share.
[:[00:17:34] Trisha: No, I mean, I, I wrote a guided journal, um, to help people in the process of adapting to another country. And yes, you, you reviewed it for me, but, um, I will offer that to people and they'll go on not, not really my thing,
[:
[00:17:56] Trisha: And so when I'm, I'm working with people, it's, it's almost like some people exist. Uh, and, and, um, I don't have any research behind this. It's probably more coming out of my coaching. Um, processes and practices that some people exist on a, on a level of operating intuitively, but they're not necessarily stepping into that observer position.
[:[00:18:43] Trisha: And some people seem to do it quite well and others are a little bit, you know, it's more challenging for them to see that. And I'm wondering if you've had conversations like that with people.
[:[00:19:04] David: Um, and I, I would say there's some research to bear out what you're talking about, that in part, a lot of successful executives in particular, Are very intuitive and talk about. I just know in my gut. I know what the data is going to say before I even see it, but it's really not just from the gut. Like, there's been years and years of programming it that gave them kind of a 6th sense, if you will, of what it's there where I think this becomes so important is when you're in a diverse or an unfamiliar situation.
[:[00:19:57] Trisha: There's two components that I think, uh, um, sort of different perspectives, if you like, and we can have different shifts with, so one of it is awareness of self And awareness, I think of our own culture and where, you know, what we have grown up to believe we've, we've, you know, the analogy is often the fish swimming in the water, we've taken that water for granted as something we can breathe in and then encountering a different culture.
[:[00:20:45] Trisha: And how do we help people recognize their own both, both cultural, uh, programming and also the moments when we might be responding to something in a way that. You know, it's not the way we want as, as you said about how, you know, your initial response was, well, if you, you know, if you, if you can see it, why don't you, so the initial response may not be the most helpful one.
[:[00:21:24] David: A couple thoughts. One is, um, you know, international experiences are one of the best ways to gain insight on yourself because you often find yourself comparing yourself to where you're going.
[:[00:22:18] David: So I said international, it could also be just going to a different region in your own country or being surrounded in a different ethnic community. But that's a key part. I certainly don't pretend to be an expert on this, but books like The Body Keeps the Score are things that I think can be really useful when we're thinking about this practice of how do I pay attention to things like my heart rate, um, what happens to me in general when I get stressed, and are those things happening as I'm inter countering, as I'm encountering, rather, an intercultural situation?
[:[00:23:11] David: Other things you would add that I've missed.
[:[00:23:35] Trisha: So there's a, there's a balance there. And I'll often ask people, you know, what did you hear yourself saying in that moment? You know, what, what was going on inside your head to sort of unpack a little bit around whether there's a bias or a judgment that might be happening, which, you know, we know, um, unconscious bias, one of its problems is that it's unconscious.
[:[00:23:58] Trisha: So we often don't pull ourselves up on our, the thoughts that might be running through our head that might help us to uncover some of those biases. So, yeah, it's a little bit like trying to take, take the conversations we might be having with ourselves. If we can make them explicit, then we can see them.
[:[00:24:31] David: Yeah. And you reminded me when you mentioned unconscious bias, I mean, another tool that many of us are very familiar with, but may not leverage enough are all the different assessments and inventories that are out there.
[:[00:25:02] David: And I might say, this says I'm direct. I don't think I'm direct at all. And the team going, really? Cause we all think you're very, or maybe like, yeah, I agree. You don't seem very direct. So, you know, assessments only have value in the way that we actually make meaning from them. But I think that can be another, another useful tool.
[:[00:25:43] David: Did they think that even though I'm playful that I still wasn't a safe person to let them know, please not do that, etc. So I think in ourself, I can ask, why was I so irritated by that? Or why was I feeling so stressed? And when it's with others, I don't mean that we should be asking that person. Why are you upset with this?
[:[00:26:24] Trisha: Yeah, yeah, that's that's so true. The five why's is really helpful. If you're thinking about the awareness of others, and I know we've got, you know, a whole lot of differences coming to the play here and some cultures are more other focused. Um, some people's, um, neuro divergence may make them. You know, less able to observe others or may make them increasingly aware, you know, um, almost painfully aware of others.
[:[00:27:21] David: In front of them with others, or yeah, so one one technique that I use repeatedly with groups because it's rooted in so much important research around metacognition is perspective taking and in particular, first person perspective taking and. You've heard me share this research before, but Adam Galinsky out of Columbia assigned a group of students, um, to describe an elderly gentleman sitting on a park bench in New York City.
[:[00:28:08] David: What do you see? And what he found. was that the first group very much resorted to a lot of negative stereotypes about the elderly. Oh, poor clueless lonely man, you know, in his final years withering health. Second group was just kind of clinical. I sit here every day. I see this. Third group wrote the most positive humanizing description.
[:[00:28:54] David: And I was doing this with a lot of companies when we were in the throes of the vaccine debate surrounding COVID. And on both sides of it for the anti vaxxers, okay, could you for a moment just argue against yourself from the perspective of someone who thinks vaccines should be mandated in the workplace and vice versa?
[:[00:29:32] David: There's that word. I wasn't even trying to do it, but in helping us kind of think through. The eyes of somebody else.
[:[00:29:48] Trisha: Thank you for sharing that. And that probably is a good place to wrap up. So, uh, thank you so much, Dave. I was going to say, is there anything else? And then I remembered that, uh, in your, your book, you were talking about, Don't ask if people have any further questions, but ask, what questions do you have? So imply that there probably is something else.
[:[00:30:14] David: You know, there are a number of. Interesting innovations coming out to help us with the idea of mindfulness and metacognition. And some of those things are like eye tracking software to have people watch a video incident and see how they respond, looking at the brain activity.
[:[00:30:56] David: And I remember you said this at the time it was being demoed to us that not only the feedback from it, just knowing that your conversation was being tracked was a mindfulness activity, a metacognitive kind of exercise of. Thinking about thinking in terms of what you're doing. So for all the appropriate fears about AI and some of that that's out there.
[:[00:31:28] Trisha: Absolutely. And maybe there's some we can build. Um, we'll keep thinking about this. Um, thank you so much, Dave.
[:[00:31:55] Trisha: Thank you so much, Dave. Really appreciate it.
[:
